The Birth Certificate

[rawhide]

So is he or isn't he the Anti-Christ??? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

This is kinda why I am holding off on getting the new ""travel card"" u no 666 and all. mark of the beastie

 

just in case

 

 

 

GBR

[hosker]

OK, legally, i guess your right. but as you all know, im not a supporter of most gov..... and most laws. legality is just an opinion, and its usually not mine.

 

and for me, this is like accepting a HS recruit to the Huskers without proof of his principals signature on his diploma, even if he does have a seal on it. maybe im wrong, but i like to hold my gov. to the highest, most foolproof extremes. which, in this case, the most foolproof thing to do would be for Obama to release his long form birth certificate. to me its the only thing that makes sense. i would expect that kind of effort from the Huskers, and i don't expect anything less from the gov.(actually i expect better).

 

no i wouldn't have been OK with John McCain... but thats irrelevant at this point

 

since all the evidence(esp. this piece of evidence) that might prove Obama was/wasn't born in the US hasn't been released, i personally don't feel its been solved, and yes it does need to be solved.... if he's going to be president, if he's going to pass laws, if he's going to be commander in chief.... then we need to be absolutely positive whether he is eligible to be president. im not convinced yet, maybe im wrong for that.

I'm not sure I follow the logic. The "short form" and the "long form" have the same effect - they both establish that the birth occurred in Hawaii on the date specified. The long form simply looks different and has some additional information such as the name of the delivering doctor (if one) and hospital (if one) - things like that. But aside from that, the forms are the same - they do the same thing. So the only thing on the "long form" that is not present on the "short form" is information that has no effect at all on the validity of the birth in Hawaii.

 

So, here's where I don't follow. You don't believe that the official, legal document issued by the official, legal executive branch department that has authority over the matter is conclusive proof. But you will believe or accept as conclusive proof...the official, legal document issued by the official, legal executive branch department that has authority over the matter.

 

 

in short, yes. no mater how that sounds.

 

i do believe that the short form birth certificate is proof. but not conclusive. conclusive for me, would be verifying that the doctor(if one) on the BC is really a doctor or if he was just a random name pulled out of a hat, if he was present at all, or whatever else there might be... same goes for the hospital, or whatever else there might be.

 

if the long form ever is released, i'll be surprised if he isn't an natural born american. but with the way this has been handled, i(and a good portion of america) still have doubts. its a quick easy fix(if he really is a natural born citizen), that'll put the concerns of 400,000 americans at bay... i think that kind of thing should be addressed by the gov in a conclusive way. if that means they have to do a little extra work for 400,000 of the people they work for, so be it.

[bennychico11]

if he really was born in hawaii, great. and if he wasn't? would you be OK with him as your president? i know i wouldn't be...

 

 

I'd be okay with him as my president. I really don't think that "natural born citizen" clause should be a decider on who can be president. If McCain were elected, I don't think it would have affected how he ran the country either.

 

Hell, technically we could split hairs and say George Washington and several other first presidents weren't naturally born US citizens.

 

 

Truth is I never really realized there was a short and long form to birth certificates. I've never had anyone ask me at the DMV or anywhere else for my long or short...I just give them what I have. I have no clue what version that one is.

I think there are more things to worry about in our country than this.

[SOCALHUSKER]

***SNIP***

 

to debunk this as a conspiracy theory is just retarded.... it is a theory yes, but to slander it because its usually a non-issue is absurd. there isn't conclusive evidence to prove otherwise, until he releases his long form birth certificate. simple as that.

 

***SNIP***

One correction. The statements by the Director of the Department of Health, coupled with the seal on the short form, are conclusive, legal evidence of Obama's birth in the State of Hawaii. Each state determines what constitutes legal proof of a birth, the seal affixed to the document is proof of same, and the attestation by the member of the executive branch charged in law with enforcing the regulations governing the issuance of the form is conclusive proof.

 

People may not like that, they may not agree with it, but it's the law. Not only in Hawaii, but in all states. So, absent proof to the contrary, the dismissing it as a conspiracy theory is perfectly reasonable.

 

***SNIP***

 

if he really was born in hawaii, great. and if he wasn't? would you be OK with him as your president? i know i wouldn't be...

 

***SNIP***

Would you have been "OK" with McCain, who was born in Panama?

 

***SNIP***

 

this is an issue that NEEDS to be solved. and it can only be solved one way, which makes it alot easier for everyone. nobody should be dumb enough to not care about this

Actually, no it doesn't need solved. It is solved. The "short form" is a legal, valid evidence of birth in the State of Hawaii. It is as valid as any other state's form, which is all the evidence legally required to prove birth within the United States.

 

So AR, what you are essentialy saying is that since government has the power to make and enforce the laws, they are always right and just and never to be questioned? It doesn't matter if anyone questions what they do or how they do it, because this can be, in your opinion, dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

 

Doesn't the first amendment of the Constitution give the people the right to petition the government for redress of grievances? Wouldn't this be considered a grievance? So yes, he must prove he was born in Hawaii. If he doesn't, as a government official, he is breaching the very contract he holds his subjects to. In no way, do I consent to or support the Constitution, but I do feel that if the government is going to pretend to rule by the laws of it, they might, at the very least, acknowledge and follow the same laws themselves.

[SOCALHUSKER]

if he really was born in hawaii, great. and if he wasn't? would you be OK with him as your president? i know i wouldn't be...

 

 

I'd be okay with him as my president. I really don't think that "natural born citizen" clause should be a decider on who can be president. If McCain were elected, I don't think it would have affected how he ran the country either.

 

Hell, technically we could split hairs and say George Washington and several other first presidents weren't naturally born US citizens.

 

 

Truth is I never really realized there was a short and long form to birth certificates. I've never had anyone ask me at the DMV or anywhere else for my long or short...I just give them what I have. I have no clue what version that one is.

I think there are more things to worry about in our country than this.

 

Agreed, but wouldn't you also agree that a government, which constantly pesters and punishes individuals with technicalities and regulations, should at least follow those same rules they hold the individuals to.

[hosker]

if he really was born in hawaii, great. and if he wasn't? would you be OK with him as your president? i know i wouldn't be...

 

 

I'd be okay with him as my president. I really don't think that "natural born citizen" clause should be a decider on who can be president. If McCain were elected, I don't think it would have affected how he ran the country either.

 

Hell, technically we could split hairs and say George Washington and several other first presidents weren't naturally born US citizens.

 

 

Truth is I never really realized there was a short and long form to birth certificates. I've never had anyone ask me at the DMV or anywhere else for my long or short...I just give them what I have. I have no clue what version that one is.

I think there are more things to worry about in our country than this.

 

well, Washington and several others were grandfathered in by the constitution... this country wouldn't have lasted to long if they weren't.

 

so if say, some russian(literally born in russia) was able to garner enough support by the american voters to be the president, you wouldn't care?

 

the reason the founders included "natural born citizenship" in The Constitution isn't just for kicks. its to keep the interest of The Constitution and county in mind of every president during such presidencies. and you could argue that Obama has those interest in mind, some would argue otherwise in specific cases... never the less, i can't help but think that if i went over to japan, and became a top elected official, i would probably have the interest of America in mind in most of my decisions, and i'd expect the same to be done from any foreigner in the same type of position here in america.

 

absolutely theirs better things to worry about than this. which first of all, is why its so mind boggling that obama has just put it to rest by releasing he LF BC. secondly, all the other things to worry about aren't in The Constitution, which is the basis of solving all those other things... so to leap ahead without first establishing the basis of the law that is supposed to be followed is rather illogical, imo.

 

also, going to the DMV, and being president are two very different things. theirs DMVs all over the world, theirs only one president of the united states.

[bennychico11]

well, Washington and several others were grandfathered in by the constitution... this country wouldn't have lasted to long if they weren't.

still, we could split hairs. Just as we could about McCain.

 

so if say, some russian(literally born in russia) was able to garner enough support by the american voters to be the president, you wouldn't care?

 

Truthfully? No. Because I don't vote based on where someone is from. I care more about the issues. As long as they were a citizen now is what matters. Obama has a drivers license (I'm assuming), a SS#, a library card, etc. etc. That's good enough for me.

 

so if not Hawaii, where is this theory saying Obama was born?

 

i can't help but think that if i went over to japan, and became a top elected official, i would probably have the interest of America in mind in most of my decisions, and i'd expect the same to be done from any foreigner in the same type of position here in america.

 

a lot of that is based on how long you lived in each country though. If you were an American for 40 years, went over to Japan and became an official after only spending a few months there...I agree with you. But if you maybe were in the US for only 2 years of your life and then your parents moved and raised you in Japan for 38 years, what interests would you have? The bulk of your life, experiences, and beliefs...would have been shaped by Japanese culture, no? If it was 50/50...if you lived in America for 25 years and then Japan for another 25 years, you'd be shaped by both cultures almost equally (probably Japan more since you were there longer as an adult). What about another country who's ideals are closer to Americans. Say, Canada for example.

My point is, yes living in a country for a period of time shapes your interests and decisions. But this would come out in the run for office, yes?

 

also, going to the DMV, and being president are two very different things. theirs DMVs all over the world, theirs only one president of the united states.

 

the DMV thing was more for SoCal who brought it up

[HuskerExpat]

Even if he wasn't born in Hawaii, which is a ridiculous conspiracy theory, he was still a natural born citizen, having been born to a mother who was a citizen of the United States. Thus, he is perfectly qualified to be president. So it really is very much a non-issue.

[HuskerJen]

I'd be okay with him as my president. I really don't think that "natural born citizen" clause should be a decider on who can be president. If McCain were elected, I don't think it would have affected how he ran the country either.

 

Hell, technically we could split hairs and say George Washington and several other first presidents weren't naturally born US citizens.

 

Truth is I never really realized there was a short and long form to birth certificates. I've never had anyone ask me at the DMV or anywhere else for my long or short...I just give them what I have. I have no clue what version that one is. I think there are more things to worry about in our country than this.

 

Okay, seriously put down the crack pipe and back away slowly. I'm sorry I don't mean to insult you, I'm not trying to be rude but honestly, and you are not the first person I've heard say this, that our early Presidents weren't born in America. What in the HELL are they teaching for history in our public schools?

 

Our 1st, 2nd and 3rd Presidents: Washington, Adams and Jefferson respectively were all born in the United States, as were all subsequent US Presidents.

 

George Washington was born in Westmoreland County, Virginia, on February 22, 1732.

 

George Washington

 

Our 2nd President, John Adams...

 

John Adams was born on October 30, 1735, and raised in Braintree (now Quincy), Massachusetts.

 

John Adams

 

Our 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson...

 

Thomas Jefferson was born on April 13, 1743 in Goochland County, Virginia.

 

Thomas Jefferson

 

You don't get to pick and choose which laws you follow. It states plainly in the Constitution what the criteria is to become President of the United States and it absolutely sickens me to no end that so many liberals think that those requirements are merely "optional."

 

And if we're going to allow people who aren't natural born citizens to become President then why doesn't the liberal left just announce osama bin laden as their next candidate of choice?

 

And this whole John McCain issue is ludicrous at best. McCain was born, if my memory serves me correctly, on an American military base, which absolutely counts as being born in any of the 50 states.

[DaveH]

oh, god. Not this again. Wacko's...

[SOCALHUSKER]

 

the DMV thing was more for SoCal who brought it up

 

You obviously didn't get the point I was trying to make. That point being, that regardless of whether or not you had to show a long or short form birth certificate (either doesn't really matter), a diploma, your favorite Husker trading card or whatever insane government regulation or stipulation you had to comply with. You still had to abide by the government's rules or you would be denied your request.

 

One of the stipulations for a receiving a driver's license is to provide a birth certificate, right? If you didn't, you wouldn't get the license. If the DMV said only the long form was to be accepted because that would give them the information they needed, more than likely that is the one you would bring. If you didn't, you wouldn't receive your license. You could always break their rules but then you must also deal with the consequences, which coincidentally the government also decides.

 

The law specifically says, a President must be a natural-born US citizen, so why shouldn't Obama have to prove that he is? If I had to prove that I was a US citizen, and the only 100% way of doing that, was to provide my official birth certificate, wouldn't I be required to show it? Since the only way to verify that he is a naturally born citizen is to show the correct birth certificate, and check to make sure the information within it is accurate. Why is he not doing that and why is the government not making him? If all the regulations, rules, laws and stipulations we are required to obey are so necessary, why is it that government doesn't also find it necessary to follow them?

 

Some may argue that we consented to the rules (which I disagree), so therefore we must follow them. But didn't those in government also consent to the same rules? If they plan on using the Constitution as the backbone for their rules, shouldn't they also follow what is in the Constitution?

[AR Husker Fan]

So AR, what you are essentialy saying is that since government has the power to make and enforce the laws, they are always right and just and never to be questioned? It doesn't matter if anyone questions what they do or how they do it, because this can be, in your opinion, dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

 

Doesn't the first amendment of the Constitution give the people the right to petition the government for redress of grievances? Wouldn't this be considered a grievance? So yes, he must prove he was born in Hawaii. If he doesn't, as a government official, he is breaching the very contract he holds his subjects to. In no way, do I consent to or support the Constitution, but I do feel that if the government is going to pretend to rule by the laws of it, they might, at the very least, acknowledge and follow the same laws themselves.

Sorry - I don't chase after rabbit trails. Nice try, though. I neither stated expressly or impliedly the propositions that:

 

1. The government is always correct or can never be questioned.

2. That if anyone questions it can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

 

What I posted was that the "short form" is valid, legal proof of birth in the State of Hawaii. I also questioned why Oz would accept one legal, valid form of document and not another equally valid, legal form of document when the only differences contained in one is data that does not have any bearing on the legality of his citizenship. Finally, I noted that, given the above, it is reasonable for people to dismiss the request for the "long form" as a conspiracy theory - particuarly since no evidence, whatsoever, has been provided by any person or entity that Obama does not meet the qualifications of office.

 

If you wish to draw unfounded inferences from that, knock yourself out.

[bennychico11]

 

Okay, seriously put down the crack pipe and back away slowly. I'm sorry I don't mean to insult you, I'm not trying to be rude but honestly, and you are not the first person I've heard say this, that our early Presidents weren't born in America. What in the HELL are they teaching for history in our public schools?

 

Our 1st, 2nd and 3rd Presidents: Washington, Adams and Jefferson respectively were all born in the United States, as were all subsequent US Presidents.

 

again, you must have missed my words "splitting hairs"

When the first few presidents were born, the United States did not exist....so, therefore, they would have been considered British subjects before the revolution.

 

the term "natural born citizen" has never been defined by the Courts.

 

And if we're going to allow people who aren't natural born citizens to become President then why doesn't the liberal left just announce osama bin laden as their next candidate of choice?

sigh

[SOCALHUSKER]

So AR, what you are essentialy saying is that since government has the power to make and enforce the laws, they are always right and just and never to be questioned? It doesn't matter if anyone questions what they do or how they do it, because this can be, in your opinion, dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

 

Doesn't the first amendment of the Constitution give the people the right to petition the government for redress of grievances? Wouldn't this be considered a grievance? So yes, he must prove he was born in Hawaii. If he doesn't, as a government official, he is breaching the very contract he holds his subjects to. In no way, do I consent to or support the Constitution, but I do feel that if the government is going to pretend to rule by the laws of it, they might, at the very least, acknowledge and follow the same laws themselves.

Sorry - I don't chase after rabbit trails. Nice try, though. I neither stated expressly or impliedly the propositions that:

 

1. The government is always correct or can never be questioned.

2. That if anyone questions it can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

 

What I posted was that the "short form" is valid, legal proof of birth in the State of Hawaii. I also questioned why Oz would accept one legal, valid form of document and not another equally valid, legal form of document when the only differences contained in one is data that does not have any bearing on the legality of his citizenship. Finally, I noted that, given the above, it is reasonable for people to dismiss the request for the "long form" as a conspiracy theory - particuarly since no evidence, whatsoever, has been provided by any person or entity that Obama does not meet the qualifications of office.

 

If you wish to draw unfounded inferences from that, knock yourself out.

 

Nice!! But the questions were rhetorical, I wasn't asking you to verify my statement. I was asking if what the citizen's are requesting is considered a grievance? If so, aren't they allowed to petition the government for a redress of grievances? If the government ignores this request, wouldn't that be considered a breach of the contract between the two? Seeing as how the judges threw out the requests isn't that the same as ignoring the requests?

 

The Constitution specifically states that a President must be a natural born citizen. Where does it say that evidence must be provided to prove he isn't? If anything, the word must signals the burden of proof falls on the individual wishing to become the President? Which according to 400,000 petitioner's, Obama hasn't done.

[strigori]

I'd be okay with him as my president. I really don't think that "natural born citizen" clause should be a decider on who can be president. If McCain were elected, I don't think it would have affected how he ran the country either.

 

Hell, technically we could split hairs and say George Washington and several other first presidents weren't naturally born US citizens.

 

Truth is I never really realized there was a short and long form to birth certificates. I've never had anyone ask me at the DMV or anywhere else for my long or short...I just give them what I have. I have no clue what version that one is. I think there are more things to worry about in our country than this.

 

Okay, seriously put down the crack pipe and back away slowly. I'm sorry I don't mean to insult you, I'm not trying to be rude but honestly, and you are not the first person I've heard say this, that our early Presidents weren't born in America. What in the HELL are they teaching for history in our public schools?

 

Our 1st, 2nd and 3rd Presidents: Washington, Adams and Jefferson respectively were all born in the United States, as were all subsequent US Presidents.

 

George Washington was born in Westmoreland County, Virginia, on February 22, 1732.

 

George Washington

 

Our 2nd President, John Adams...

 

John Adams was born on October 30, 1735, and raised in Braintree (now Quincy), Massachusetts.

 

John Adams

 

Our 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson...

 

Thomas Jefferson was born on April 13, 1743 in Goochland County, Virginia.

 

Thomas Jefferson

 

You don't get to pick and choose which laws you follow. It states plainly in the Constitution what the criteria is to become President of the United States and it absolutely sickens me to no end that so many liberals think that those requirements are merely "optional."

 

And if we're going to allow people who aren't natural born citizens to become President then why doesn't the liberal left just announce osama bin laden as their next candidate of choice?

 

And this whole John McCain issue is ludicrous at best. McCain was born, if my memory serves me correctly, on an American military base, which absolutely counts as being born in any of the 50 states.

history in schools generally skips from the colonization to the revolution, ignoring most of the 250ish years in between. And given how poorly most people deal with dates, its no surprise.

 

Why is this even being discussed? Hawaii supplied a birth certificate, anyone pushing for more beyond that just needs to get over McCain losing already.

 

Bin Laden? Really? Do you realize just how absurd this statement makes everything else sound?