Jump to content


**Official Religious Debate Thread**


Recommended Posts

That's why religion is such a terrible thing. It's no secret that religion is responsible for a lot of bad in this world, and one could maybe argue that it causes more negative than positive.

 

 

 

The difference with Christianity, (sorry I am kind of hijacking this thread to plug my faith :)), is that it isn't about religion at all. Religion is a check list of things you need to do in order to please God, which quite frankly, is impossible to do. Our "good deeds" are filthy rags in the eyes of a holy God, so there isn't anything we can do to win his favor. The difference then, in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that God loves us and yearns to have a personal relationship, so he sent Jesus to die on the cross, and not only endure the torture and punishment, but most importantly to endure God's wrath that should be directed towards the entirety of humanity.

 

Going back to the original question, ArmyHusker I am still saying the same thing as you, and I too believe that God has revealed himself in different ways, but I guess what I was getting at before was that he could choose to show proof of his existance, bad use of words on my part.

 

If someone is looking for "proof" of God (what is proof anyways, besides just an overwhelming amount of evidence), it's my opinion that you need not look any further than the natural world around us to see the hand of an omnipotent being at work.

 

 

DizzturbedNUfan, as far as the gospels go, the minor details, even though they relate to, as you say, the most important event to ever take place in human history, are still minor details. What's important are the teachings, the persecution, and the resurrection. The best evidence in favor of the most important of these three, the resurrection, lies in the fact that no Jewish or other text can explain the disappearance of Jesus' body in any way.

 

If we are looking outside of the gospels, however, I think it's pretty easy for an educated person to tell when a part of the Bible is meant to teach, or when it's meant to chronicle, for the most part at least (helps a lot if you have a good background in the original languages).

 

Experiment time. Let me flip the story around.

 

It's true that Christianity is unique in its requirements for salvation. There is no weighted scale, no clear checklist (though there is an impardonable sin and that pesky Book of James to deal with), or magic words for your deathbed. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. God's not a complete altruist. If you don't believe that Christ came, died, and rose––that is, at the very least acknowledge in some sense that the event took place––you don't make the cut. And it isn't like the Hindu gods' version of not making the cut, where you simply try again. It isn't like the Jewish not making the cut, where you pass from existence entirely. With the God of Love, not making the cut involves an eternity in the darkest dungeon, the most excruciating torture, where for all time you will scream out in agony, never a day closer to the end of your sentence even after a billion years has gone by––all because you failed to recognize that the fantastic events listed in copies of copies of copies of lost manuscripts were probably, like all such things from that time, at least partly mythical.

 

Now, God WANTS to save us. That means a being who is supposedly self-sufficient, lacking nothing, has found room for improvement in his existence and wants us to be a part of it. Okay, we'll skip that. But is God doing everything in his power to achieve our salvation? Is he doing everything he possibly can to make sure that every person on the planet has the appropriate information to make a decision as to whether or not eternal life with their creator is worth it?

 

If so, God's not as powerful as we thought. If not, why not? Is it that––maybe, uh oh, possibly––he doesn't actually want to save everyone?

 

See what I mean?

 

P.S. To the "looking at the natural world" comment. This is one of many well refuted teleological arguments. Even if a designer could be inferred from nature, it certainly doesn't mean it has to be a supernatural one (aliens could have seeded life here), and it especially lends no weight whatsoever to the God of the Bible over any other list of candidates. At best we're now at deism.

 

Fantastic counterpoints, here is my best shot at them.

 

You are right in the fact that if a designer could be inferred from nature (which I believe it can), that there is no saying whether or not it is a supernatural being. There is a story in Acts about a Roman officer that demonstrates my next point clearly. This man wasn't a Jew, but had heard bits and pieces about the God of the Jews, and he worshipped this God because he had reason to believe that the Jews had it right, so to speak, and they were worshiping the "correct" God. Big problem for this guy though, he had no idea about any kind of Jewish law, or about God for that matter, or about Jesus and the gospel, but because he was seeking the truth, ie, because he was acting on his human desire to find out what was going on behind the scenes, God blessed Him by making one of the apostles (I think it was Peter) path intersect with his, so he could hear the good news. So, what I am trying to say is, as humans we all are looking for the answer of meaning behind things, whether it be the world or something small and trivial. And if we seek out that answer, regardless of whether or not we know about God or Jesus, as long as we are really looking for truth, God will allow truth to be found.

 

Edit, forgot to add this part: You are right, there is room for "improvement" so to speak for God. Reason being, he originally created the human race to live in untainted love and harmony with Him, and we chose to live for ourselves (ie we chose against God), and he yearns for our love, because we are a part of him, and he wants to be whole with us.

 

 

There are also some other issues with it. These are all things that are held to be true for Christians.

 

God is infallible.

God says that He is a 'jealous God'

Jealousy is one of the 7 deadly sins.

 

These are things that reason out if you actually think about it.

 

God is infallible and is all knowing and all seeing. And Christians like to talk about 'God's Plan' and HE sets everything in motion. Yet at this being that does not make mistakes, and knows all that is was and will be gets upset and punishes people who don't believe in Him. Which means if the first part is right, then God is punishing people for doing what He made them to do. And if everything is and always has been moving on a path that God started when the universe created, no one has any choice in anything, its all just an illusion.

 

God is infallible. When He is referred to as a jealous God, and this happens so many times throughout the Bible, that is the best interpretation a human could give towards the indescribable and incomprehensible power of God. What God feels is surely nothing like jealousy at all, but who is to say what it feels like? Certainly none of us.

 

No God doesn't make anyone do anything. Its called called free will, which he gave us. We make our own decisions on earth and if we make awful decisions and are not sorry for it then we get punished.

 

Bingo

Then God can't be all knowing. It is always claimed that God knows all, sees all and has a plan in order for people. Knowing the future in all things means there is predestination. And predestination means there is no free will. It can't work both ways. If everything thing you do is set in stone from the beginning of time, how can you have free will?

 

 

Again, and maybe this seems like a tired Christian cop out, but if you ask me it's completely legitimate. We have no business trying to understand things that are so very obviously outside of our understanding. Why can't God have knowledge of everything that is, was and will be, but still give us free will? Because humans can't? God resides outside the laws of time, so what he "sees" (another human interpretation of how God operates...it's pretty faulty) wouldn't go in a timeline at all, it would just be there. The best analogy I can think of, and it is a pretty terrible analogy, is looking through a scrapbook at someone's graduation. You see everything that was from the time they were born until that day, maybe you see a letter of acceptance to a college so you know what's to come, and you know what they are doing, so you have knowledge of all of those things, but you didn't have any control over them happening.

 

P.S. - please don't make a counterpoint explaining how my analogy is incorrect, I know it is, and any other will be just as bad. :)

Link to comment

That's why religion is such a terrible thing. It's no secret that religion is responsible for a lot of bad in this world, and one could maybe argue that it causes more negative than positive.

 

 

 

The difference with Christianity, (sorry I am kind of hijacking this thread to plug my faith :)), is that it isn't about religion at all. Religion is a check list of things you need to do in order to please God, which quite frankly, is impossible to do. Our "good deeds" are filthy rags in the eyes of a holy God, so there isn't anything we can do to win his favor. The difference then, in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that God loves us and yearns to have a personal relationship, so he sent Jesus to die on the cross, and not only endure the torture and punishment, but most importantly to endure God's wrath that should be directed towards the entirety of humanity.

 

Going back to the original question, ArmyHusker I am still saying the same thing as you, and I too believe that God has revealed himself in different ways, but I guess what I was getting at before was that he could choose to show proof of his existance, bad use of words on my part.

 

If someone is looking for "proof" of God (what is proof anyways, besides just an overwhelming amount of evidence), it's my opinion that you need not look any further than the natural world around us to see the hand of an omnipotent being at work.

 

 

DizzturbedNUfan, as far as the gospels go, the minor details, even though they relate to, as you say, the most important event to ever take place in human history, are still minor details. What's important are the teachings, the persecution, and the resurrection. The best evidence in favor of the most important of these three, the resurrection, lies in the fact that no Jewish or other text can explain the disappearance of Jesus' body in any way.

 

If we are looking outside of the gospels, however, I think it's pretty easy for an educated person to tell when a part of the Bible is meant to teach, or when it's meant to chronicle, for the most part at least (helps a lot if you have a good background in the original languages).

 

Experiment time. Let me flip the story around.

 

It's true that Christianity is unique in its requirements for salvation. There is no weighted scale, no clear checklist (though there is an impardonable sin and that pesky Book of James to deal with), or magic words for your deathbed. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. God's not a complete altruist. If you don't believe that Christ came, died, and rose––that is, at the very least acknowledge in some sense that the event took place––you don't make the cut. And it isn't like the Hindu gods' version of not making the cut, where you simply try again. It isn't like the Jewish not making the cut, where you pass from existence entirely. With the God of Love, not making the cut involves an eternity in the darkest dungeon, the most excruciating torture, where for all time you will scream out in agony, never a day closer to the end of your sentence even after a billion years has gone by––all because you failed to recognize that the fantastic events listed in copies of copies of copies of lost manuscripts were probably, like all such things from that time, at least partly mythical.

 

Now, God WANTS to save us. That means a being who is supposedly self-sufficient, lacking nothing, has found room for improvement in his existence and wants us to be a part of it. Okay, we'll skip that. But is God doing everything in his power to achieve our salvation? Is he doing everything he possibly can to make sure that every person on the planet has the appropriate information to make a decision as to whether or not eternal life with their creator is worth it?

 

If so, God's not as powerful as we thought. If not, why not? Is it that––maybe, uh oh, possibly––he doesn't actually want to save everyone?

 

See what I mean?

 

P.S. To the "looking at the natural world" comment. This is one of many well refuted teleological arguments. Even if a designer could be inferred from nature, it certainly doesn't mean it has to be a supernatural one (aliens could have seeded life here), and it especially lends no weight whatsoever to the God of the Bible over any other list of candidates. At best we're now at deism.

 

Fantastic counterpoints, here is my best shot at them.

 

You are right in the fact that if a designer could be inferred from nature (which I believe it can), that there is no saying whether or not it is a supernatural being. There is a story in Acts about a Roman officer that demonstrates my next point clearly. This man wasn't a Jew, but had heard bits and pieces about the God of the Jews, and he worshipped this God because he had reason to believe that the Jews had it right, so to speak, and they were worshiping the "correct" God. Big problem for this guy though, he had no idea about any kind of Jewish law, or about God for that matter, or about Jesus and the gospel, but because he was seeking the truth, ie, because he was acting on his human desire to find out what was going on behind the scenes, God blessed Him by making one of the apostles (I think it was Peter) path intersect with his, so he could hear the good news. So, what I am trying to say is, as humans we all are looking for the answer of meaning behind things, whether it be the world or something small and trivial. And if we seek out that answer, regardless of whether or not we know about God or Jesus, as long as we are really looking for truth, God will allow truth to be found.

 

Edit, forgot to add this part: You are right, there is room for "improvement" so to speak for God. Reason being, he originally created the human race to live in untainted love and harmony with Him, and we chose to live for ourselves (ie we chose against God), and he yearns for our love, because we are a part of him, and he wants to be whole with us.

 

 

What I'm getting from the Roman centurion story is another example of inferring design from what could just as easily be coincidence. The Romans were extremely superstitious people. They also absorbed a hodgepodge of religions from all their many conquered territories. The legions worshiped Mithra from the near east (who is often claimed by certain atheists to have been a source material for Christ. I doubt that very heavily myself.), the Greek gods also came over with some modifications.There's also an assumption in the story. What exactly was the "reason to believe" the centurion had when half-converting to Judaism? And, assuming the story ever even happened, why is God's providence necessary for a person living in the area to meet a traveling apostle in the area, particularly one that is said to be preaching constantly?

 

Second point. I agree that everyone is looking for meaning, truth, or something like that. The problem is the human brain is a pattern seeking device which often sees patterns that aren't there. That is why there are so many conspiracy theorists, 9-11 truthers, gobs of religions, UFO abductees, memory-recovering Satanists, etc. The Mormons have a neat little trick for this "discovering truth" idea. When they come to your door they'll hand you a Bible and tell you to pray and ask God if the things written in it are true. You'll know that they are by the sensation of a "burning in your bosom." Now, if you don't feel that sensation, it means you're not praying sincerely enough. Well, that's friggin' terrific, isn't it? Your garden variety Catch-22. If I feel the sensation, the book is true. If I don't, it means I'm not sincere enough, but the book is still true. Weak-minded people somehow manage to miss the key point: There is no causality between a physical sensation and the truth of Joseph Smith's huckster cult. But again, some minds detect patterns where there are none to be had.

 

 

The Bible operates under a similar bizarre circular reasoning. How do I know the events in it are true? Because God inspired it. How do I know God inspired it? Because it says so in the Bible. I believe because (refrain).

 

Lastly, the God who is said to have created paradise also creating a being he foreknew would slither into the garden and, unbeknownst to the crown jewel of his creation, damn them and their posterity for all time. If you trace the history of the world even from Christ, how many untold billions have suffered eternal damnation because God let this happen? And what's the plan to reverse this trend? The murder of a Jewish carpenter in illiterate first century Palestine two thousand years before the advances of science that would allow us to examine the event, or at the very least record it so we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it even took place at all.

Link to comment

That's why religion is such a terrible thing. It's no secret that religion is responsible for a lot of bad in this world, and one could maybe argue that it causes more negative than positive.

 

 

 

The difference with Christianity, (sorry I am kind of hijacking this thread to plug my faith :)), is that it isn't about religion at all. Religion is a check list of things you need to do in order to please God, which quite frankly, is impossible to do. Our "good deeds" are filthy rags in the eyes of a holy God, so there isn't anything we can do to win his favor. The difference then, in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that God loves us and yearns to have a personal relationship, so he sent Jesus to die on the cross, and not only endure the torture and punishment, but most importantly to endure God's wrath that should be directed towards the entirety of humanity.

 

Going back to the original question, ArmyHusker I am still saying the same thing as you, and I too believe that God has revealed himself in different ways, but I guess what I was getting at before was that he could choose to show proof of his existance, bad use of words on my part.

 

If someone is looking for "proof" of God (what is proof anyways, besides just an overwhelming amount of evidence), it's my opinion that you need not look any further than the natural world around us to see the hand of an omnipotent being at work.

 

 

DizzturbedNUfan, as far as the gospels go, the minor details, even though they relate to, as you say, the most important event to ever take place in human history, are still minor details. What's important are the teachings, the persecution, and the resurrection. The best evidence in favor of the most important of these three, the resurrection, lies in the fact that no Jewish or other text can explain the disappearance of Jesus' body in any way.

 

If we are looking outside of the gospels, however, I think it's pretty easy for an educated person to tell when a part of the Bible is meant to teach, or when it's meant to chronicle, for the most part at least (helps a lot if you have a good background in the original languages).

 

Experiment time. Let me flip the story around.

 

It's true that Christianity is unique in its requirements for salvation. There is no weighted scale, no clear checklist (though there is an impardonable sin and that pesky Book of James to deal with), or magic words for your deathbed. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. God's not a complete altruist. If you don't believe that Christ came, died, and rose––that is, at the very least acknowledge in some sense that the event took place––you don't make the cut. And it isn't like the Hindu gods' version of not making the cut, where you simply try again. It isn't like the Jewish not making the cut, where you pass from existence entirely. With the God of Love, not making the cut involves an eternity in the darkest dungeon, the most excruciating torture, where for all time you will scream out in agony, never a day closer to the end of your sentence even after a billion years has gone by––all because you failed to recognize that the fantastic events listed in copies of copies of copies of lost manuscripts were probably, like all such things from that time, at least partly mythical.

 

Now, God WANTS to save us. That means a being who is supposedly self-sufficient, lacking nothing, has found room for improvement in his existence and wants us to be a part of it. Okay, we'll skip that. But is God doing everything in his power to achieve our salvation? Is he doing everything he possibly can to make sure that every person on the planet has the appropriate information to make a decision as to whether or not eternal life with their creator is worth it?

 

If so, God's not as powerful as we thought. If not, why not? Is it that––maybe, uh oh, possibly––he doesn't actually want to save everyone?

 

See what I mean?

 

P.S. To the "looking at the natural world" comment. This is one of many well refuted teleological arguments. Even if a designer could be inferred from nature, it certainly doesn't mean it has to be a supernatural one (aliens could have seeded life here), and it especially lends no weight whatsoever to the God of the Bible over any other list of candidates. At best we're now at deism.

 

Fantastic counterpoints, here is my best shot at them.

 

You are right in the fact that if a designer could be inferred from nature (which I believe it can), that there is no saying whether or not it is a supernatural being. There is a story in Acts about a Roman officer that demonstrates my next point clearly. This man wasn't a Jew, but had heard bits and pieces about the God of the Jews, and he worshipped this God because he had reason to believe that the Jews had it right, so to speak, and they were worshiping the "correct" God. Big problem for this guy though, he had no idea about any kind of Jewish law, or about God for that matter, or about Jesus and the gospel, but because he was seeking the truth, ie, because he was acting on his human desire to find out what was going on behind the scenes, God blessed Him by making one of the apostles (I think it was Peter) path intersect with his, so he could hear the good news. So, what I am trying to say is, as humans we all are looking for the answer of meaning behind things, whether it be the world or something small and trivial. And if we seek out that answer, regardless of whether or not we know about God or Jesus, as long as we are really looking for truth, God will allow truth to be found.

 

Edit, forgot to add this part: You are right, there is room for "improvement" so to speak for God. Reason being, he originally created the human race to live in untainted love and harmony with Him, and we chose to live for ourselves (ie we chose against God), and he yearns for our love, because we are a part of him, and he wants to be whole with us.

 

 

There are also some other issues with it. These are all things that are held to be true for Christians.

 

God is infallible.

God says that He is a 'jealous God'

Jealousy is one of the 7 deadly sins.

 

These are things that reason out if you actually think about it.

 

God is infallible and is all knowing and all seeing. And Christians like to talk about 'God's Plan' and HE sets everything in motion. Yet at this being that does not make mistakes, and knows all that is was and will be gets upset and punishes people who don't believe in Him. Which means if the first part is right, then God is punishing people for doing what He made them to do. And if everything is and always has been moving on a path that God started when the universe created, no one has any choice in anything, its all just an illusion.

 

God is infallible. When He is referred to as a jealous God, and this happens so many times throughout the Bible, that is the best interpretation a human could give towards the indescribable and incomprehensible power of God. What God feels is surely nothing like jealousy at all, but who is to say what it feels like? Certainly none of us.

 

No God doesn't make anyone do anything. Its called called free will, which he gave us. We make our own decisions on earth and if we make awful decisions and are not sorry for it then we get punished.

 

Bingo

Then God can't be all knowing. It is always claimed that God knows all, sees all and has a plan in order for people. Knowing the future in all things means there is predestination. And predestination means there is no free will. It can't work both ways. If everything thing you do is set in stone from the beginning of time, how can you have free will?

 

 

Again, and maybe this seems like a tired Christian cop out, but if you ask me it's completely legitimate. We have no business trying to understand things that are so very obviously outside of our understanding. Why can't God have knowledge of everything that is, was and will be, but still give us free will? Because humans can't? God resides outside the laws of time, so what he "sees" (another human interpretation of how God operates...it's pretty faulty) wouldn't go in a timeline at all, it would just be there. The best analogy I can think of, and it is a pretty terrible analogy, is looking through a scrapbook at someone's graduation. You see everything that was from the time they were born until that day, maybe you see a letter of acceptance to a college so you know what's to come, and you know what they are doing, so you have knowledge of all of those things, but you didn't have any control over them happening.

 

P.S. - please don't make a counterpoint explaining how my analogy is incorrect, I know it is, and any other will be just as bad. :)

By your definition then free will is only an illusion. If anyone or anything knows what the outcome WILL be, not could be or timeline theory, because when you get down to it something omniscient would know which possibility would be the one that WILL happen, then there is no free will, no good, no evil. To truly have free will, then no being can know the outcome of any event for certain. If everything is moving along on some predetermined plan that God set up at the start of all existence, and everything is moving exactly according to the infallible being's plan, then how can there be an argument for free will? Saying that God gives you free will, yet knows what the outcome of every choice you will make is contradictory.

 

And the 'have no business knowing' is the same sort of thinking that kept mankind in the dark ages for centuries, and oppressed science. There is only one set of rules for how things work, and nothing can operate outside the rules. We may now know all the rules, but they are there and they are not mutable.

Link to comment

The thing is, things aren't moving along the way God had planned (or hopes). If it had been, there would have never been a fall, and we would all live our lives in harmony with God in a perfect world.

 

I'm not sure why you think that God knowing what will happen instantly eliminates the choice in life, unless it's because you're lumping God into your "only one set of rules for how things work", in which case why are you even posting in this thread, it's obvious that God, or at least the idea of a benevolent creator, would be outside of the way things work in our universe, if He did in fact exist.

Link to comment

There will be no good that comes from this thread.

We can all talk and for the most part get along on every other thread on this site, but you throw in a stupid little word "Religion" and World War 3 will start.

 

Good luck!

 

post-4948-1263620631.gif

 

I always find it ironic that those who criticize religion for it's intolerance are so loath to tolerate the religions they criticize.

Link to comment

I fear that too often, we let the words of Chistians determine our estimation of Christianity. The foundatoinal philosipies of Christ himself are readily available (at least to the degree that any history,written or oral can be said to be uniformly accuate). I would prefer to see a movie to judge it's quality rather than take a critics estimation as my own, sould I reach my foundation belifs with any less regard.

Link to comment

I fear that too often, we let the words of Chistians determine our estimation of Christianity. The foundatoinal philosipies of Christ himself are readily available (at least to the degree that any history,written or oral can be said to be uniformly accuate). I would prefer to see a movie to judge it's quality rather than take a critics estimation as my own, sould I reach my foundation belifs with any less regard.

 

 

Good post, I agree with what you're saying. It's too bad that people do hang on our words so much too, because I know I fail to represent Christianity miserably at times.

Link to comment

The thing is, things aren't moving along the way God had planned (or hopes). If it had been, there would have never been a fall, and we would all live our lives in harmony with God in a perfect world.

 

I'm not sure why you think that God knowing what will happen instantly eliminates the choice in life, unless it's because you're lumping God into your "only one set of rules for how things work", in which case why are you even posting in this thread, it's obvious that God, or at least the idea of a benevolent creator, would be outside of the way things work in our universe, if He did in fact exist.

Which is exactly my point. Infallible, all powerful and all knowing, yet gets caught unaware by a lowly human. Huge hole in the logic.

 

Look at it this way. A being that knows all would basically look at time like a timeline laid out in a history book. You can read it again and again, but the ending is always the same.

 

And yeah, God would fall into the "only one set of rules" which is another point arguing that the God as defined by the Bible does not exist. And I did say that we don't know all the rules. Just ask a scientist about quantum mechanics....

Link to comment

The thing is, things aren't moving along the way God had planned (or hopes). If it had been, there would have never been a fall, and we would all live our lives in harmony with God in a perfect world.

 

I'm not sure why you think that God knowing what will happen instantly eliminates the choice in life, unless it's because you're lumping God into your "only one set of rules for how things work", in which case why are you even posting in this thread, it's obvious that God, or at least the idea of a benevolent creator, would be outside of the way things work in our universe, if He did in fact exist.

Which is exactly my point. Infallible, all powerful and all knowing, yet gets caught unaware by a lowly human. Huge hole in the logic.

 

Look at it this way. A being that knows all would basically look at time like a timeline laid out in a history book. You can read it again and again, but the ending is always the same.

 

And yeah, God would fall into the "only one set of rules" which is another point arguing that the God as defined by the Bible does not exist. And I did say that we don't know all the rules. Just ask a scientist about quantum mechanics....

 

Firstly, the presumtion that God is suprised by our actions is unsupported. That we may piss him off mightly doesn't mean he didin't see it coming, or that wrath is in any way unjust.

Secondly, speaking of quantum mechanics, wouldn't omnipotence by it's very nature view time in a way wholley unfamiliar to us mere mortals. To presume time to be a strickly linear and unidirectional concept is exceptionally constraining in the realm of deity (see realitivity theory). After all, not all human civilations even view the flow of time in specifically like manner.

Link to comment

I've always been back and forth with religion and with God. I think it's very difficult to wrap your mind around no matter what you ultimately believe in.

 

If there is no God, I find it extremely depressing, sometimes to the point of feeling like a panic attack, that there is nothing after you die. The thought of no longer existing, forever and ever, is horrifying to me.

 

I've had real trouble believing in God when one look around you seems to confirm that we're nothing more than animals. Look at how we act when we don't have food and water - we'll kill each other and eat each other. Look at how almost everything boils down to sex - the prime biologic purpose. Why are we so instinctively afraid of death? I can understand the notion that mankind is being tested by a higher power and then judged later. I can understand that. What I don't understand is natural disasters or disease. When we hurt and kill ourselves with wars that is our own fault and we'll be doomed to repeat it until we learn. What about an earthquake?

 

I guess I've come to that point in my life where I'm trying to find out what it is I believe in. I'm looking for meaning. And as much doubt as I have about there being a God, on the other hand the universe, our own planet as one infinitesimal example, is so intricately complex that it seems almost impossible that it simply arose randomly. Isn't it possible on the other hand that there is a higher power so beyond our comprehension? Much like ants or termites are to us. They have no notion of concepts that we have - electricity, gravity, humor, love, desire. Isn't it possible there is some God so far above us like we are to insects?

 

And even though I've said sometimes I feel like we're nothing more than animals, I think about all the miracles we have everyday. Someone could argue we love our children because we want to protect our gene line. But where do we get love for lifelong friends, ones who don't share our genes? Why do some people sacrifice their lives for others? Why do we find meaning in so many things if the only reason we're here is to reproduce and keep the species alive? If there is no God, where did the Universe itself come from? Where did the hydrogen and the fundamental forces come from? Were they just there?

 

I'm sorry if this has turned into a rant. It's a confusing topic to think about let alone write about and I'm sure most of you will understand.

  • Fire 1
Link to comment

I've always been back and forth with religion and with God. I think it's very difficult to wrap your mind around no matter what you ultimately believe in.

 

If there is no God, I find it extremely depressing, sometimes to the point of feeling like a panic attack, that there is nothing after you die. The thought of no longer existing, forever and ever, is horrifying to me.

 

I've had real trouble believing in God when one look around you seems to confirm that we're nothing more than animals. Look at how we act when we don't have food and water - we'll kill each other and eat each other. Look at how almost everything boils down to sex - the prime biologic purpose. Why are we so instinctively afraid of death? I can understand the notion that mankind is being tested by a higher power and then judged later. I can understand that. What I don't understand is natural disasters or disease. When we hurt and kill ourselves with wars that is our own fault and we'll be doomed to repeat it until we learn. What about an earthquake?

 

I guess I've come to that point in my life where I'm trying to find out what it is I believe in. I'm looking for meaning. And as much doubt as I have about there being a God, on the other hand the universe, our own planet as one infinitesimal example, is so intricately complex that it seems almost impossible that it simply arose randomly. Isn't it possible on the other hand that there is a higher power so beyond our comprehension? Much like ants or termites are to us. They have no notion of concepts that we have - electricity, gravity, humor, love, desire. Isn't it possible there is some God so far above us like we are to insects?

 

And even though I've said sometimes I feel like we're nothing more than animals, I think about all the miracles we have everyday. Someone could argue we love our children because we want to protect our gene line. But where do we get love for lifelong friends, ones who don't share our genes? Why do some people sacrifice their lives for others? Why do we find meaning in so many things if the only reason we're here is to reproduce and keep the species alive? f there is no God, where did the Universe itself come from? Where did the hydrogen and the fundamental forces come from? Were they just there?

 

I'm sorry if this has turned into a rant. It's a confusing topic to think about let alone write about and I'm sure most of you will understand.

 

The question about where the universe comes from is a good one. The short answer is, nobody knows. Was there a Big Bang? Probably, but what happened a tenth of a second before it (if such a concept even means anything pre-linear time) is anybody's guess. The problem you run into with religious doctrine is saying "I don't know" just isn't good enough. Young Earth Creationists will latch onto something like this and say, 'Aha! God must have done it!' But this is simply wrong. It's a false dilemma. Or at the very least another God of the gaps reading of the universe, where because we can't explain phenomena X with science (yet), God must have done it. You have to be careful to not draw hasty conclusions ex nihilo.

 

Secondly, could there be a God who has an intelligence comparable to what ours is to an insect? Of course it's possible. It's also possible that creation actually happened yesterday and everything you ever remember happening in your life is nothing but a memory implant. The question is what evidence do we have for the idea? As far as historical, scientific, or modern claims of the supernatural, to call the evidence threadbare would be a compliment. The onus to provide evidence is on those who claim two things. Not only do they claim to know there is a God, but they also know what he/she/it wants, and in some cases claim a direct line of communication complete with supernatural gifts.

  • Fire 1
Link to comment

I've had real trouble believing in God when one look around you seems to confirm that we're nothing more than animals. Look at how we act when we don't have food and water - we'll kill each other and eat each other. Look at how almost everything boils down to sex - the prime biologic purpose. Why are we so instinctively afraid of death? I can understand the notion that mankind is being tested by a higher power and then judged later. I can understand that. What I don't understand is natural disasters or disease. When we hurt and kill ourselves with wars that is our own fault and we'll be doomed to repeat it until we learn. What about an earthquake?

 

I guess I've come to that point in my life where I'm trying to find out what it is I believe in. I'm looking for meaning. And as much doubt as I have about there being a God, on the other hand the universe, our own planet as one infinitesimal example, is so intricately complex that it seems almost impossible that it simply arose randomly. Isn't it possible on the other hand that there is a higher power so beyond our comprehension? Much like ants or termites are to us. They have no notion of concepts that we have - electricity, gravity, humor, love, desire. Isn't it possible there is some God so far above us like we are to insects?

 

And even though I've said sometimes I feel like we're nothing more than animals, I think about all the miracles we have everyday. Someone could argue we love our children because we want to protect our gene line. But where do we get love for lifelong friends, ones who don't share our genes? Why do some people sacrifice their lives for others? Why do we find meaning in so many things if the only reason we're here is to reproduce and keep the species alive? If there is no God, where did the Universe itself come from? Where did the hydrogen and the fundamental forces come from? Were they just there?

 

Isn't it all possible that the universe, earth and us...just is. Human beings like to think on simple terms. It makes things easier. So why not create an idea of a single entity making everything. That there is a god...who is a He...who loves all his creations but also wants us to worship him in order to join him in the afterlife. Simple right? It's funny that we see the universe as so infinite and complex but still resort to the easy answer by saying, "God did it." If the universe is so complex, why also couldn't the process that brought it all into existence. In other words, why can't it be so complex that we can't understand it all. That evolution took millions of years and all the complexities had to be just in the right order in order for us to be here now. It's not random...it just IS. I don't think anything in life is random, but I also don't think everything is already planned out. I also find the "god" answer TOO simple.

 

Nothing is random, nor will anything ever be, whether a long string of perfectly blue days that begin and end in golden dimness, the most seemingly chaotic political acts, the rise of a great city, the crystalline structure of a gem that has never seen the light, the distributions of fortune, what time the milkman gets up, the position of the electron, or the occurrence of one astonishingly frigid winter after another.

 

Even electrons, supposedly the paragons of unpredictability, are tame and obsequious little creatures that rush around at the speed of light, going precisely where they are supposed to go. They make faint whistling sounds that when apprehended in varying combinations are as pleasant as the wind flying through a forest, and they do exactly as they are told. Of this, one can be certain.

 

And yet there is a wonderful anarchy, in that the milkman chooses when to arise, the rat picks the tunnel into which he will dive when the subway comes rushing down the track from Borough Hall, and the snowflake will fall as it will. How can this be? If nothing is random, and everything is predetermined, how can there be free will? The answer to that is simple.

 

Nothing is predetermined; it is determined, or was determined, or will be determined. No matter, it all happened at once, in less than an instant, and time was invented because we cannot comprehend in one glance the enormous and detailed canvas that we have been given - so we track it, in linear fashion, piece by piece. Time, however, can be easily overcome; not by chasing light, but by standing back far enough to see it all at once.

 

The universe is still and complete. Everything that ever was, is; everything that ever will be, is - and so on, in all possible combinations. Though in perceiving it we imagine that it is in motion, and unfinished, it is quite finished and quite astonishingly beautiful.

 

In the end, or rather, as things really are, any event, no matter how small, is intimately and sensibly tied to all others. All rivers run full to the sea; those who are apart are brought together; the lost ones are redeemed; the dead come back to life; the perfectly blue days that have begun and ended in golden dimness continue, immobile and accessible; and, when all is perceived in such a way as to obviate time, justice becomes apparent not as something that will be, but as something that is.

 

Mark Helprin

 

 

We know now that as humans that we are pretty much at the top of the food chain. We (at least most of us) have a higher intelligence than all the species here on the planet. We build cars, create buildings, have wars, can reach the moon, and even cure diseases. So it's easy to think that since we're the top dogs right now...we always have been and always will be. The problem is, time has been around much longer than we have. Most orthodox scientists have come to the conclusion that our earth is about 4.55 billions years old and that mitochondrial DNA and fossil evidence puts homo sapiens on this earth for about 200,000 of those years. If my math is right, that would be only .00004% of the time earth has been around! Sounds like we're more just along for the ride than here by design.

Of course this is provided you agree with modern science on the evolutionary theory. If you're a purist creationist who doesn't think evolution and a supreme being can exist because the bible doesn't say it's so...we can save that for another discussion.

Link to comment

The fact that the universe exists at all is a major head scratcher. I am interested in this kind of stuff and I have found that THIS theory has become increasingly popular and is actually very convincing. The more you think about it, the more it makes sense and would explain basically everything. However, I would HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend watching THIS short series. It is really well done and if you make time to watch it and understand it, it should profoundly blow your mind.

Link to comment

This is without question the most civil thread discussing religion/god/etc. I've ever seen on the intertoobz.

 

I consider myself a Noachide, adhering to the 7 laws of Noah (Wiki) What's great about this belief is that it provides the basis for the social norms that create a civil society while providing no requirement to acknowledge a deity. Sure, you can't have any Idols before God, but if I worship nothing, I am in compliance. You get all the benefit of religion without the burden.

Link to comment
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...