New York City mosque

[huzkerbob]

I support the effort to construct the mosque 100%. The area they are building it in is a historic Arabic neighborhood that used to be known as "Little Syria". They are totally within their rights to construct this facility and I despise the so-called "real Americans" who want to take away their liberties. It's just bigotry, really. Few people who live in the area (literally, the area, not white bread Long Island shmucks weighing in on this) care about this because nobody has ever had problems with the Arabic community in New York. Suddenly this is national news and some bigots from east bum-f#*k Wyoming think they understand the situation. These people aren't violent. They're my freaking neighbors that I see everyday and it is extremely insulting to me how this is being handled. Even my parents in the suburbs - well to do Jewish people - are raising a stink about it. It really makes me angry. Bunch of hypocrites and bigots. That's all this is.

 

+1

 

I've said this time and time again to anyone who will listen, that this is NOT a christian country. It is a country founded on religious freedom. Which means freedom for ALL religions, not just the most predominant one.

[bennychico11]

David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh considered themselves Christians - maybe not the definition of Christian most Christians believe, but that was their belief. I don't see anyone getting upset that there are half a dozen Christian churches within the same radius of Ground Zero as this mosque will be.

 

If we're going to hold all of Islam accountable for the actions of Osama bin Laden then we're going to hold all of Christendom responsible for the actions of McVeigh, et al. That's how this works.

 

We could spend a couple of pages in this thread listing off all the harms done to the world in the name of Christianity, from the Inquisition to the missionaries to Africa and Central/South America to the pedophilic plague in the Catholic church to whatever. Mainstream Christians abhor these things as much as anyone, and feel no responsibility for them. Why should Muslims feel responsibility for, or be held accountable for the actions of bin Laden and his ilk?

 

It doesn't make sense. Let them build their mosque.

 

 

+1

 

 

besides, it wasn't the Muslims anyway. We all know the US government orchestrated the whole thing.

Maybe we should remove any and all government buildings from ground zero?

[huskertim]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 

 

Amen bratha. (wouldn't it be cool if the Supreme Court had actually read this bit?)

[huskertim]

My $.02

 

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous. The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

IMO this is very much the same tactic used by the "minority leaders" of our country (IE Jesse Jackson, Farikan) or, if you prefer the radical right (Fallwell, Phelps). The fomenting of intolerance through beligerence is a neccessary part of recruitment to their cause. Even though these figures seldom represent the rank and file members of the cause they supposedly support, they act as touchstones (or lighting rods if you prefer) for attracting attention to themselves in the name of their cause. IMO that's what this is about.

My concern going foward is that once built, the "cultural center" will demand a "clean zone" around it thus infringeing on the rights of other property owners to build as they see fit. I suspect that the Bloomberg admin would cave to these demands on the grounds of "cultural senseitivities".

 

Having said all this, keep in mind, I support everyone's right to be as big an A**hole as they can. God knows we've shead enough blood to defend that right. So if the owners of this property want to build their victory trophy over the site of our fallen citizens while the city of NY argues over wheather it should build a memorial to these lost souls, I say go for it.

[knapplc]

My $.02

 

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous. The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

IMO this is very much the same tactic used by the "minority leaders" of our country (IE Jesse Jackson, Farikan) or, if you prefer the radical right (Fallwell, Phelps). The fomenting of intolerance through beligerence is a neccessary part of recruitment to their cause. Even though these figures seldom represent the rank and file members of the cause they supposedly support, they act as touchstones (or lighting rods if you prefer) for attracting attention to themselves in the name of their cause. IMO that's what this is about.

My concern going foward is that once built, the "cultural center" will demand a "clean zone" around it thus infringeing on the rights of other property owners to build as they see fit. I suspect that the Bloomberg admin would cave to these demands on the grounds of "cultural senseitivities".

 

Having said all this, keep in mind, I support everyone's right to be as big an A**hole as they can. God knows we've shead enough blood to defend that right. So if the owners of this property want to build their victory trophy over the site of our fallen citizens while the city of NY argues over wheather it should build a memorial to these lost souls, I say go for it.

 

This entire post presupposes that the builders of that mosque supported/believed in/agreed with/are happy about 9/11 based on the tissue-thin evidence that 1) they are Muslim and 2) Osama bin Laden professes to follow Islam.

 

This is as logical as supposing that Christians - all Christians - endorse the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.

 

Question: Why do you support that bombing, and the murder of those innocents, huskertim?

[krc1995]

My $.02

 

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous. The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

IMO this is very much the same tactic used by the "minority leaders" of our country (IE Jesse Jackson, Farikan) or, if you prefer the radical right (Fallwell, Phelps). The fomenting of intolerance through beligerence is a neccessary part of recruitment to their cause. Even though these figures seldom represent the rank and file members of the cause they supposedly support, they act as touchstones (or lighting rods if you prefer) for attracting attention to themselves in the name of their cause. IMO that's what this is about.

My concern going foward is that once built, the "cultural center" will demand a "clean zone" around it thus infringeing on the rights of other property owners to build as they see fit. I suspect that the Bloomberg admin would cave to these demands on the grounds of "cultural senseitivities".

 

Having said all this, keep in mind, I support everyone's right to be as big an A**hole as they can. God knows we've shead enough blood to defend that right. So if the owners of this property want to build their victory trophy over the site of our fallen citizens while the city of NY argues over wheather it should build a memorial to these lost souls, I say go for it.

 

This entire post presupposes that the builders of that mosque supported/believed in/agreed with/are happy about 9/11 based on the tissue-thin evidence that 1) they are Muslim and 2) Osama bin Laden professes to follow Islam.

 

This is as logical as supposing that Christians - all Christians - endorse the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.

 

Question: Why do you support that bombing, and the murder of those innocents, huskertim?

 

Actually Imam Faisal supports Hizballah and has made statements that the US brought the terror attacks on themselves; which to be fair, is an idea support by other religions and cultures- not just muslims. I think the mosque's concept is great; open to all faiths and preaching tolerance. But what do we actually know about Faisal and where does his money come from, and why does this have to build on a site where the first plane's landing gear rested? Could you step into the shoes of the victims of 9/11 and see where building this mosque here may be inconsiderate?

[carlfense]

My $.02

 

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous. The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

IMO this is very much the same tactic used by the "minority leaders" of our country (IE Jesse Jackson, Farikan) or, if you prefer the radical right (Fallwell, Phelps). The fomenting of intolerance through beligerence is a neccessary part of recruitment to their cause. Even though these figures seldom represent the rank and file members of the cause they supposedly support, they act as touchstones (or lighting rods if you prefer) for attracting attention to themselves in the name of their cause. IMO that's what this is about.

My concern going foward is that once built, the "cultural center" will demand a "clean zone" around it thus infringeing on the rights of other property owners to build as they see fit. I suspect that the Bloomberg admin would cave to these demands on the grounds of "cultural senseitivities".

 

Having said all this, keep in mind, I support everyone's right to be as big an A**hole as they can. God knows we've shead enough blood to defend that right. So if the owners of this property want to build their victory trophy over the site of our fallen citizens while the city of NY argues over wheather it should build a memorial to these lost souls, I say go for it.

 

This entire post presupposes that the builders of that mosque supported/believed in/agreed with/are happy about 9/11 based on the tissue-thin evidence that 1) they are Muslim and 2) Osama bin Laden professes to follow Islam.

 

This is as logical as supposing that Christians - all Christians - endorse the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.

 

Question: Why do you support that bombing, and the murder of those innocents, huskertim?

 

Actually Imam Faisal supports Hizballah and has made statements that the US brought the terror attacks on themselves; which to be fair, is an idea support by other religions and cultures- not just muslims. I think the mosque's concept is great; open to all faiths and preaching tolerance. But what do we actually know about Faisal and where does his money come from, and why does this have to build on a site where the first plane's landing gear rested? Could you step into the shoes of the victims of 9/11 and see where building this mosque here may be inconsiderate?

Please provide some sort of source for this . . . preferably not Rush Limbaugh. Here's a link with an interview of Imam Faisal.

 

Highlights:

 

"It's painful. (9/11) When this thing first happened, everybody in the community said, "Oh, God, let this not be a person from our faith, tradition, from our background."

 

"Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. That's just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity, or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will do peculiar things, and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion. But the Koran is... God says in the Koran that they think that they are doing right, but they are doing wrong."

 

Hmmm. Sounds exactly like what we are saying here.

[Manhattan]

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous.

 

No it isn't, but if that's how you want to see it, I guess there's no changing your mind. They shouldn't have to find a "more suitable" location. New York isn't Nebraska. There isn't land for miles available to build anything anywhere you want. Any kind of available real estate for a project this large is hard to get. If they prefer this location, then so be it. It isn't directly on or adjacent to the site, either, but apparently people who failed high school geography think that everywhere in lower Manhattan is "right next to ground zero" and don't realize that a "more suitable location" according to people like yourself would be far outside of the community they are trying to support.

[Ponderosa]

I support the effort to construct the mosque 100%. The area they are building it in is a historic Arabic neighborhood that used to be known as "Little Syria". They are totally within their rights to construct this facility and I despise the so-called "real Americans" who want to take away their liberties. It's just bigotry, really. Few people who live in the area (literally, the area, not white bread Long Island shmucks weighing in on this) care about this because nobody has ever had problems with the Arabic community in New York. Suddenly this is national news and some bigots from east bum-f#*k Wyoming think they understand the situation. These people aren't violent. They're my freaking neighbors that I see everyday and it is extremely insulting to me how this is being handled. Even my parents in the suburbs - well to do Jewish people - are raising a stink about it. It really makes me angry. Bunch of hypocrites and bigots. That's all this is.

 

So in support of tolerance, you go with...let's review the tape shall we:

 

a talking point, hatred, a straw man, bigots, schmucks, a sweeping generalization, bigots, anger, hypocrites and bigots.

Please stop with the racist/bigotry BS. It is tedious and smacks of intimidation.

 

Do others see the disconnect here?

[Manhattan]

I support the effort to construct the mosque 100%. The area they are building it in is a historic Arabic neighborhood that used to be known as "Little Syria". They are totally within their rights to construct this facility and I despise the so-called "real Americans" who want to take away their liberties. It's just bigotry, really. Few people who live in the area (literally, the area, not white bread Long Island shmucks weighing in on this) care about this because nobody has ever had problems with the Arabic community in New York. Suddenly this is national news and some bigots from east bum-f#*k Wyoming think they understand the situation. These people aren't violent. They're my freaking neighbors that I see everyday and it is extremely insulting to me how this is being handled. Even my parents in the suburbs - well to do Jewish people - are raising a stink about it. It really makes me angry. Bunch of hypocrites and bigots. That's all this is.

 

So in support of tolerance, you go with...let's review the tape shall we:

 

a talking point, hatred, a straw man, bigots, schmucks, a sweeping generalization, bigots, anger, hypocrites and bigots.

Please stop with the racist/bigotry BS. It is tedious and smacks of intimidation.

 

Do others see the disconnect here?

 

I don't see a disconnect. Why is it hypocritical to be intolerant of those who are intolerant of the rights of others? We must stand up for those who are having their rights besieged by people who love to claim the solidarity of the rights of the constitution when it comes to things they agree with, but then want to deny it to people who they don't like. I do not tolerate racism. If I saw a KKK member, it wouldn't be a "disconnect" if I called them a racist or a bigot. It would be accurate.

[krc1995]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7931799/Ground-Zero-mosque-too-close-for-comfort.html

[carlfense]

***snip***

The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

***snip***

 

You might want to rethink this. Apparently you weren't a history major either.

 

link

[carlfense]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7931799/Ground-Zero-mosque-too-close-for-comfort.html

 

Here's the relevant quote from that piece:

Imam Faisal is indubitably pluralist and tolerant. He is a strong advocate for Muslim women's advancement. He is however the sort of moderate who also has trouble denouncing Hizbollah or Hamas for acts of terrorism and who once said US foreign policy was "an accomplice" in the 9/11 attacks.

 

Is there a difference between having "trouble denouncing" (as the article said) and "supporting" (as you said)? I think there is.

 

Faisal apparently actually said that "US foreign policy was "an accomplice" in the 9/11 attacks." That's probably more a statement of fact and not a statement of opinion. We've certainly made few friends in the Arab world through our interactions in the middle east and our close relationship with Israel.

[Ponderosa]

I support the effort to construct the mosque 100%. The area they are building it in is a historic Arabic neighborhood that used to be known as "Little Syria". They are totally within their rights to construct this facility and I despise the so-called "real Americans" who want to take away their liberties. It's just bigotry, really. Few people who live in the area (literally, the area, not white bread Long Island shmucks weighing in on this) care about this because nobody has ever had problems with the Arabic community in New York. Suddenly this is national news and some bigots from east bum-f#*k Wyoming think they understand the situation. These people aren't violent. They're my freaking neighbors that I see everyday and it is extremely insulting to me how this is being handled. Even my parents in the suburbs - well to do Jewish people - are raising a stink about it. It really makes me angry. Bunch of hypocrites and bigots. That's all this is.

 

So in support of tolerance, you go with...let's review the tape shall we:

 

a talking point, hatred, a straw man, bigots, schmucks, a sweeping generalization, bigots, anger, hypocrites and bigots.

Please stop with the racist/bigotry BS. It is tedious and smacks of intimidation.

 

Do others see the disconnect here?

 

I don't see a disconnect. Why is it hypocritical to be intolerant of those who are intolerant of the rights of others? We must stand up for those who are having their rights besieged by people who love to claim the solidarity of the rights of the constitution when it comes to things they agree with, but then want to deny it to people who they don't like. I do not tolerate racism. If I saw a KKK member, it wouldn't be a "disconnect" if I called them a racist or a bigot. It would be accurate.

Of course you don't.

 

Do you seriously expect us to believe you are only talking about; two or three "hicks" from WY, four white dudes from LI and your parents. Really?

You're not implying anything further with the "real Americans" & national news language and now latest example?

 

Either you are using the same tactic of 'Collective Responsibility' on those who oppose the mosque; the same argument you vehemently reject, if done to Muslims.

 

Or as you "support the effort to construct the mosque 100%." - it isn't just a few bad apples; you think 100% of the opposition is bigoted to the core.

I doubt it is even possible for you to envision an argument or formulation against the mosque that isn't in some manner racist...at least to you.

 

You can see into the souls of men, you know their hearts' (at least in Wyoming) - is there a legitimate argument to be made?

If so, let's hear it, so that our poor benighted countrymen may escape your righteous wrath...

 

 

Other points:

 

"Little Syria"?

Most of the "Syrians" were Christians of one sort or another and the neighborhood faded by the 20's and was gone by the 40's. What is the relevance?

 

"...nobody has ever had problems with the Arabic community in New York." ??? Nobody ever? Or is it never, ever? Way over the top.

 

Besieged? The Board vote was unanimous, the Mayor supports it, the Governor and President are at worst indiffferent.

How can people in BFE suppress the rights of people in NYC? They have no power, say or vote in New York city or state. Straw man.

[krc1995]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7931799/Ground-Zero-mosque-too-close-for-comfort.html

 

Here's the relevant quote from that piece:

Imam Faisal is indubitably pluralist and tolerant. He is a strong advocate for Muslim women's advancement. He is however the sort of moderate who also has trouble denouncing Hizbollah or Hamas for acts of terrorism and who once said US foreign policy was "an accomplice" in the 9/11 attacks.

 

Is there a difference between having "trouble denouncing" (as the article said) and "supporting" (as you said)? I think there is.

 

Faisal apparently actually said that "US foreign policy was "an accomplice" in the 9/11 attacks." That's probably more a statement of fact and not a statement of opinion. We've certainly made few friends in the Arab world through our interactions in the middle east and our close relationship with Israel.

No, if you have "trouble denouncing" you are supporting- at least to me. What do the actual victims and their families think of this issue? I really haven't heard from the victims. Their view is my view.