What do you classify yourself as and what do you define that as?

[Nebula]

I am a Christian.

 

I get so fed up with people claiming that because so and so did such and such, the church is a horrible place, or Christians are just as bad as everyone else. I'm not saying that things don't happen, or that people haven't done evil in God's name...but the bottom line is that in the end, you are only responsible for YOUR actions. If you want to reject God, that is your choice, but stop blaming others. You made the choice, and when it comes time to be held accountable for your decisions, it will be 100% based on you, not someone somewhere that did something...no matter how often it happened.

 

I go to church every week, and minister in a couple different churches where I live. The VAST majority of Christians I meet are great people, who honestly want to live a life pleasing to God.

 

mm0

 

I scoff at that.

Naw, muzicman0 makes a good point. The last sentence is especially true. From my experience, anyway.

Christians are not better human beings than everyone else based on said Christianity. I reject that as completely ridiculous and combatively insulting.

 

That said...I am sure that you have found a lot of truth in the last sentence. So have I, for that matter. My mother is a devout Lutheran. I don't hold it against her, just like she doesn't believe she's a better person than I am because of her faith. This is why I bolded the above and wrote what I did.

[NUance]

I am a Christian.

 

I get so fed up with people claiming that because so and so did such and such, the church is a horrible place, or Christians are just as bad as everyone else. I'm not saying that things don't happen, or that people haven't done evil in God's name...but the bottom line is that in the end, you are only responsible for YOUR actions. If you want to reject God, that is your choice, but stop blaming others. You made the choice, and when it comes time to be held accountable for your decisions, it will be 100% based on you, not someone somewhere that did something...no matter how often it happened.

 

I go to church every week, and minister in a couple different churches where I live. The VAST majority of Christians I meet are great people, who honestly want to live a life pleasing to God.

 

mm0

 

I scoff at that.

Naw, muzicman0 makes a good point. The last sentence is especially true. From my experience, anyway.

Christians are not better human beings than everyone else based on said Christianity. I reject that as completely ridiculous and combatively insulting.

 

That said...I am sure that you have found a lot of truth in the last sentence. So have I, for that matter. My mother is a devout Lutheran. I don't hold it against her, just like she doesn't believe she's a better person than I am because of her faith. This is why I bolded the above and wrote what I did.

I can’t speak for your mother, of course. But as for myself I feel sorry for people who are atheists. I don’t think they are necessarily bad people. I suspect many simply haven’t put themselves in a position to experience the grace and gifts of God. Or perhaps they’ve heard, been exposed, and learned all they needed, but it just didn’t happen for them. Which is really unfortunate. For them.

[muzicman0]

 

Christians are not better human beings than everyone else based on said Christianity. I reject that as completely ridiculous and combatively insulting.

 

I don't think I said that...and if I did, that was not what I meant. Non Christians can be good people, just like Christians can be bad. But I will say that if you truly are chasing after God, you will strive to live a better life. I don't always succeed, but I try to be a good person. and I will say again, the vast majority of Christians feel the same way.

 

mm0

[308_Husker]

I consider myself a Christian, but have become skeptical of the faith over the past couple of years. It's hard for me to have faith in the church when itself has been more than evil and inhibitory to progress of the human race (i.e. preaching the world is flat, the sun orbits the earth, etc.).

 

I've taken a step back and looked at the Bible as a whole. Keeping in mind that I believe the church has done more than its' fair share of wrong-doings, who's to say that some clergyman didn't switch a couple of phrases or tweaked a couple of passages in the Bible during the Dark Ages, when nobody knew how to read and write? Heck, maybe they even wrote entire chapters---I don't know.

 

It's little thoughts like these that have been eating away at me, I suppose.

[Husker_x]

I consider myself a Christian, but have become skeptical of the faith over the past couple of years. It's hard for me to have faith in the church when itself has been more than evil and inhibitory to progress of the human race (i.e. preaching the world is flat, the sun orbits the earth, etc.).

 

I've taken a step back and looked at the Bible as a whole. Keeping in mind that I believe the church has done more than its' fair share of wrong-doings, who's to say that some clergyman didn't switch a couple of phrases or tweaked a couple of passages in the Bible during the Dark Ages, when nobody knew how to read and write? Heck, maybe they even wrote entire chapters---I don't know.

 

It's little thoughts like these that have been eating away at me, I suppose.

 

I won't spoil the surprise for you, but I'll tell you this much: keep researching the bible, because you're getting warmer.

[bennychico11]

 

Christians are not better human beings than everyone else based on said Christianity. I reject that as completely ridiculous and combatively insulting.

 

I don't think I said that...and if I did, that was not what I meant. Non Christians can be good people, just like Christians can be bad. But I will say that if you truly are chasing after God, you will strive to live a better life. I don't always succeed, but I try to be a good person. and I will say again, the vast majority of Christians feel the same way.

 

mm0

 

But I don't think Christianity or a belief in god is needed for that. Take those same people and remove god from the equation and I think they will still strive to be good people because they, on their own, are good.

[Husker_x]

I can’t speak for your mother, of course. But as for myself I feel sorry for people who are atheists. I don’t think they are necessarily bad people. I suspect many simply haven’t put themselves in a position to experience the grace and gifts of God. Or perhaps they’ve heard, been exposed, and learned all they needed, but it just didn’t happen for them. Which is really unfortunate. For them.

 

Or maybe your god is lazy and hasen't revealed himself in a coherent enough manner to be taken seriously. Or maybe it's worse than that. Maybe your god actually hates atheists and wants us to burn in hell. Ever think of that? Ever do a quick study of predestination?

 

And I'm sorry, but feeling bad isn't good enough. If you think I'm about to roast alive forever thanks to your loving god, I need to see some emotion, here. I don't think you really mean it.

[muzicman0]

 

Christians are not better human beings than everyone else based on said Christianity. I reject that as completely ridiculous and combatively insulting.

 

I don't think I said that...and if I did, that was not what I meant. Non Christians can be good people, just like Christians can be bad. But I will say that if you truly are chasing after God, you will strive to live a better life. I don't always succeed, but I try to be a good person. and I will say again, the vast majority of Christians feel the same way.

 

mm0

 

But I don't think Christianity or a belief in god is needed for that. Take those same people and remove god from the equation and I think they will still strive to be good people because they, on their own, are good.

sometimes. But take for example a couple that we have in our church...When they came to us, they were drug addicts, and were also (at least one of them) having affairs. They were also social outcasts. They would be the first people to tell you that God has completely changed their lives. It has been 6 years since the first time I met them, and while they are not perfect, and still have their moments, they are now productive members of society.

 

Please don't misunderstand though, again, I'm not saying that there isn't good people outside of church. And I'm not even saying that a faith in God is needed for that. I do believe it helps though.

 

But all of that, again, wasn't my point above. My point is to stop looking at others for your validation. You and you alone are responsible for what you do or do not believe.

 

mm0

[muzicman0]

I can’t speak for your mother, of course. But as for myself I feel sorry for people who are atheists. I don’t think they are necessarily bad people. I suspect many simply haven’t put themselves in a position to experience the grace and gifts of God. Or perhaps they’ve heard, been exposed, and learned all they needed, but it just didn’t happen for them. Which is really unfortunate. For them.

 

Or maybe your god is lazy and hasen't revealed himself in a coherent enough manner to be taken seriously. Or maybe it's worse than that. Maybe your god actually hates atheists and wants us to burn in hell. Ever think of that? Ever do a quick study of predestination?

 

And I'm sorry, but feeling bad isn't good enough. If you think I'm about to roast alive forever thanks to your loving god, I need to see some emotion, here. I don't think you really mean it.

If you have studied the bible even half as much as you claim to, you would know the answers to these questions. Or, at least our (Christians) answers to these questions.

 

and, to put it bluntly, if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to hell. NOT by God's design, but by your choice. But, again, you should probably already know that, which can only mean one thing...you have chosen to not believe. No amount of reasoning will change that. As I stated in another thread a while ago to you, why don't you take a month or 2 and honestly seek God, with no preconceptions, and see if He doesn't reveal himself to you.

 

mm0

[NUance]

I can’t speak for your mother, of course. But as for myself I feel sorry for people who are atheists. I don’t think they are necessarily bad people. I suspect many simply haven’t put themselves in a position to experience the grace and gifts of God. Or perhaps they’ve heard, been exposed, and learned all they needed, but it just didn’t happen for them. Which is really unfortunate. For them.

 

Or maybe your god is lazy and hasen't revealed himself in a coherent enough manner to be taken seriously. Or maybe it's worse than that. Maybe your god actually hates atheists and wants us to burn in hell. Ever think of that? Ever do a quick study of predestination?

 

And I'm sorry, but feeling bad isn't good enough. If you think I'm about to roast alive forever thanks to your loving god, I need to see some emotion, here. I don't think you really mean it.

Ha ha! Oh, I don't feel bad about anything. It's your choice. If you had an open mind about things, I'd be glad to share with you to help you along a path that I know is right. If that's what you really wanted. But the thing is, Husker_X, you give me the impression that you don’t actually want to learn, or experience, or find out the truth. You just want to ridicule and argue. You are far too intelligent to have faith in God, or so you think. So I am not sure what’s going to happen to you when you die. Good luck with that, though.

[HuskersNow]

I can’t speak for your mother, of course. But as for myself I feel sorry for people who are atheists. I don’t think they are necessarily bad people. I suspect many simply haven’t put themselves in a position to experience the grace and gifts of God. Or perhaps they’ve heard, been exposed, and learned all they needed, but it just didn’t happen for them. Which is really unfortunate. For them.

 

Or maybe your god is lazy and hasen't revealed himself in a coherent enough manner to be taken seriously. Or maybe it's worse than that. Maybe your god actually hates atheists and wants us to burn in hell. Ever think of that? Ever do a quick study of predestination?

 

And I'm sorry, but feeling bad isn't good enough. If you think I'm about to roast alive forever thanks to your loving god, I need to see some emotion, here. I don't think you really mean it.

Ha ha! Oh, I don't feel bad about anything. It's your choice. If you had an open mind about things, I'd be glad to share with you to help you along a path that I know is right. If that's what you really wanted. But the thing is, Husker_X, you give me the impression that you don’t actually want to learn, or experience, or find out the truth. You just want to ridicule and argue. You are far too intelligent to have faith in God, or so you think. So I am not sure what’s going to happen to you when you die. Good luck with that, though.

Does having an open mind mean accepting whatever dogma you profess and not thinking critically about it? Also, how

do you know that the path you follow is the right one?

[knapplc]

I just don't see the point in ridicule or argument. The combative tone in these discussions makes no sense to me. It's very accusatory, and I see no point or merit in it.

 

I've recently "switched teams," but I have no animosity, anger or resentment towards Christians. When I called myself Christian I had no animosity towards Atheists or Agnostics, either. Nor against Buddhists or Muslims, etc.

[Landlord]

I just don't see the point in ridicule or argument. The combative tone in these discussions makes no sense to me. It's very accusatory, and I see no point or merit in it.

 

I've recently "switched teams," but I have no animosity, anger or resentment towards Christians. When I called myself Christian I had no animosity towards Atheists or Agnostics, either. Nor against Buddhists or Muslims, etc.

 

 

What he said. Look back to my first post you guys, there is absolutely no reason to have these discussions and attach negative feelings such as bitterness, ridicule, annoyance or anything else. Be respectful.

 

Anyways, back on topic. Husker_x, as I'm sure you're in agreement with (whether or not you will admit it), you are an extremely bright fellow. You challenge me and why I believe what I do on a consistent basis (and I am someone that already does a heck of a lot of that myself), but I personally really think that while you put up a guise of being open to evidence or sound arguments in favor of God, Jesus, Christianity or anything else that isn't kosher with your beliefs, I think it's just that; a guise. You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the gospel, which is incredibly surprising to me since you are almost always entirely objective and fair in any other argument.

 

 

Maybe you are right, though. Maybe God hasn't revealed himself in practical or evidenced ways; or maybe Romans 1:20 is true and we're making excuses for our rebellion and blindness. Maybe pre-destination is the non-user-friendly version that is, naturally, most popular amongst critics of Christianity, or maybe it's not nearly as unfair or selective as it could possibly be perceived. Have you done any studies in Greek? You probably have actually, I've recently been reading up on it a lot, and have been trying to wrap my head around middle verbs and how they are used in the scripture, some interesting stuff that gives a very different idea of what pre-destination means or consists of.

 

Maybe you're going to roast in hell because of the Christian God, or maybe it's your own fault. The Bible makes much more clear that we weren't meant to live sinfully, we weren't meant to live apart from God, and we weren't meant for hell, but we chose and continue to choose ourselves instead of harmony with God, and we bring a just wage of death upon ourselves. Just because God knows what will happen, when it will happen, how it will happen and why, doesn't mean He caused it to happen that way.

 

I don't really accuse you of this, but as a side-topic, I think the biggest error most of us make (those of faith or lack of faith of any sort) is thinking that we have it all figured out. I am well aware that men with literally triple the amount of wisdom and knowledge I possess have agreed with things I believe in, disagreed with them, changed their minds, converted and the like. I hope that I'm right in believing that I'm not ignorant enough to seriously think I know better than they do.

[muzicman0]

Hopefully I didn't come off as argumentative. That was not my intent.

[Husker_x]

If you have studied the bible even half as much as you claim to, you would know the answers to these questions. Or, at least our (Christians) answers to these questions.

 

and, to put it bluntly, if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to hell. NOT by God's design, but by your choice. But, again, you should probably already know that, which can only mean one thing...you have chosen to not believe. No amount of reasoning will change that. As I stated in another thread a while ago to you, why don't you take a month or 2 and honestly seek God, with no preconceptions, and see if He doesn't reveal himself to you.

 

mm0

 

For a deity who hardens the hearts of Egyptian pharaohs in order to bring on plagues and murder children, whose divine revelation includes,

 

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

and who created a world foreknowing with absolute, infallible certainty the the lion's share of souls to this day would fill the pit of Hell forever, please do not give me this tripe about what I choose. Also, I not only object to but resent your insult that no amount of reasoning will change what I believe. If all you meant to say is I won't accept magical claims without evidence or argument, then yes, that's that. But I will listen to any argument and test every claim presented to me. As for the vagary of 'honestly seeking God'––whatever that means––reason is the only tool I know of which would produce a result in the first place. I don't intend to abandon it to take on your presuppositions in a monastery for two months.

 

Ha ha! Oh, I don't feel bad about anything. It's your choice. If you had an open mind about things, I'd be glad to share with you to help you along a path that I know is right. If that's what you really wanted. But the thing is, Husker_X, you give me the impression that you don’t actually want to learn, or experience, or find out the truth. You just want to ridicule and argue. You are far too intelligent to have faith in God, or so you think. So I am not sure what’s going to happen to you when you die. Good luck with that, though.

 

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Everything I have learned that changed my attitudes or opinions about anything important has come about thanks to debate and argument. In fact it's the thing that constantly pushes me to question more, find out more, discover more, think more. I'm sorry if my tone is less comfortable for you than your sedative church pew, but I'm not looking for a best friends forever ring. By all means share away, share until it freakin' aches, but if you want to pretend you've found the absolute truth of God and the universe and everything (and it isn't 42), and you want me to believe it, pack a lunch. We're going to be here awhile.

 

If, on the other hand, my eternal fate doesn't bother you...maybe hum a doxology or something instead.