Religion, not agriculture, sparked civilization?

[The Dude]

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/musi-photography

[The Dude]

I just recently heard about this, I guess it was discovered in 1994. Interesting stuff.

 

[knapplc]

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

[Landlord]

I thought football started civilization...

[knapplc]

That was obvious pandering, but I still gave you a +1, Landlord. I'm a sucker for football.

[huskertim]

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

 

 

Sorry to nit pick but modern man (homo sapien) predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years. I understand you are probably implying that ag predates civilazation and hence the existence of specialists (IE Priests, poets, etc.) but the truth is that even in nomadic (hunter/gatherer) tribe we find evidence of specialization. Some gather fruits and berries, others hunt, still others cook and clean the carcasses, some tan hides, some make shelter and, yes, some are "holy" men. This is seen is virtually every tribal society.

[knapplc]

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

 

 

Sorry to nit pick but modern man (homo sapien) predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years. I understand you are probably implying that ag predates civilazation and hence the existence of specialists (IE Priests, poets, etc.) but the truth is that even in nomadic (hunter/gatherer) tribe we find evidence of specialization. Some gather fruits and berries, others hunt, still others cook and clean the carcasses, some tan hides, some make shelter and, yes, some are "holy" men. This is seen is virtually every tribal society.

 

I wasn't all that clear, but yes, I meant that agriculture predates civilization on a scale large enough to have created structures like these, not that agriculture predates any kind of specialization.

[huskertim]

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

 

 

Sorry to nit pick but modern man (homo sapien) predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years. I understand you are probably implying that ag predates civilazation and hence the existence of specialists (IE Priests, poets, etc.) but the truth is that even in nomadic (hunter/gatherer) tribe we find evidence of specialization. Some gather fruits and berries, others hunt, still others cook and clean the carcasses, some tan hides, some make shelter and, yes, some are "holy" men. This is seen is virtually every tribal society.

 

I wasn't all that clear, but yes, I meant that agriculture predates civilization on a scale large enough to have created structures like these, not that agriculture predates any kind of specialization.

 

Yeah, I figured as much, I just thought I'd poke the bear a bit.

[strigori]

Religion has gone hand in hand with civilization because its one of the main ways to control the people. Religion exists so those in power can keep the people in line.

[VectorVictor]

Religion has gone hand in hand with civilization because its one of the main ways to control the people. Religion exists so those in power can keep the people in line.

 

I don't think Religion has always been the political tool it is today--at one point during its creation, it had to have altruistic intentions, or it would have ceased to grow.

[wildman]

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

 

If a religious person read that. I'm pretty sure their argument would but something like this.

 

Without God creating the universe, world, life, plants and knowledge that allowed civilization to grow. Civilization would of never grown or been thought of.

 

By the way I do agree with you though.

 

I thought football started civilization...

 

Huskers created football, Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne lead us to the promise land. So would that make Bob God and Tom Jesus?

 

There was a pretty big article about this in the last Geographic. Very good read. If Turkey wasn't such a mess I'd love to go see this thing. What I find amazing is that, throughout all the warfare that has raged across Anatolia over the past 10,000 years, this thing hasn't been obliterated yet.

 

 

HOWEVER, the central failing of this theory (that religion sparked civilization) is that religion is not a basic life need. Before there can be an organized religion there must be a stable supply of food and water for the populace. Only after this is established can such things as dedicated artists or priests or soldiers be available. Without ready food, the priest starves, the poet starves and the soldier starves - unless he can take food by force from the neighbor.

 

Agriculture must, must, must precede everything.

 

 

Sorry to nit pick but modern man (homo sapien) predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years. I understand you are probably implying that ag predates civilazation and hence the existence of specialists (IE Priests, poets, etc.) but the truth is that even in nomadic (hunter/gatherer) tribe we find evidence of specialization. Some gather fruits and berries, others hunt, still others cook and clean the carcasses, some tan hides, some make shelter and, yes, some are "holy" men. This is seen is virtually every tribal society.

 

I wasn't all that clear, but yes, I meant that agriculture predates civilization on a scale large enough to have created structures like these, not that agriculture predates any kind of specialization.

 

Yeah, I figured as much, I just thought I'd poke the bear a bit.

 

If your going to poke the bear please do it behind close doors, as I do not want to see the poking stick being used lol.

 

Religion has gone hand in hand with civilization because its one of the main ways to control the people. Religion exists so those in power can keep the people in line.

 

I don't think Religion has always been the political tool it is today--at one point during its creation, it had to have altruistic intentions, or it would have ceased to grow.

 

I've read some books about pagans/wiccans. According to some of the research I've done and read. Christianity use to be among the kings, queens and higher ups while the pesants were pagans. A pope (not sure of which one) went to a king and convinced him to enforce those of his land to switch beliefs. The king not only did that but also put laws in place that would make you a criminal if caught practicing paganism. Some of those laws have just recently in the last 20 some years been removed in countries like England.