Black teenager with knife killed by Chicago PD

[huskers15]

Having watched the video it shows very little. What it does show is a quick turn by the perp towards the officer in question and then back onto the original path. That's what got him shot, that quick turn towards the officer. The officer responded to that threat and it was clearly a threat move.

 

This kid was at 15 feet and holding a knife, and likely had been warned, what's the issue? Back turned on not, has nothing to do with it.

Of course the press make no effort to educate the public on;

- The 21 foot rule and its reasoning

- The standard best practice of emptying the magazine, to ensure contact is made. And how easy it is to miss contact when under trained and under stress

- That bullets don’t always stop an individual, especially when that individual is on certain types of drugs (PCP).

 

Do cops need to call into the City Attorney for the thumbs up or down? Hey Buddy, stop charging at me for a minute while I consult with dispatch on the ROE?

 

If you want to knowingly threaten a cop, or take substances that are known to put you in a state of mind to threaten a cop or anyone for that matter, and the threat is legitimate, someone is going to get killed.

 

I wonder how many of these incidents would have ended without injury or death if the if the young street savy lads had practiced better common sense, weren't doing designer drugs and hadn't put themselves in a position to get shot.

Poor tactics is irrelevant to the use of deadly force. The initiator of the situation - the thug - is the sole individual responsible.

[huskerenner]

Quit breaking the law,carrying a knife around,and you won't get shot.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

Having watched the video it shows very little. What it does show is a quick turn by the perp towards the officer in question and then back onto the original path. That's what got him shot, that quick turn towards the officer. The officer responded to that threat and it was clearly a threat move.

 

This kid was at 15 feet and holding a knife, and likely had been warned, what's the issue? Back turned on not, has nothing to do with it.

 

Of course the press make no effort to educate the public on;

- The 21 foot rule and its reasoning

- The standard best practice of emptying the magazine, to ensure contact is made. And how easy it is to miss contact when under trained and under stress

- That bullets don’t always stop an individual, especially when that individual is on certain types of drugs (PCP).

 

Do cops need to call into the City Attorney for the thumbs up or down? Hey Buddy, stop charging at me for a minute while I consult with dispatch on the ROE?

 

If you want to knowingly threaten a cop, or take substances that are known to put you in a state of mind to threaten a cop or anyone for that matter, and the threat is legitimate, someone is going to get killed.

 

I wonder how many of these incidents would have ended without injury or death if the if the young street savy lads had practiced better common sense, weren't doing designer drugs and hadn't put themselves in a position to get shot.

 

Poor tactics is irrelevant to the use of deadly force. The initiator of the situation - the thug - is the sole individual responsible.

 

How many times does a person have to be shot after laying on the ground for them to be considered incapacitated?

 

I'm not disagreeing with the use of deadly force, the officer was clearly in a dangerous situation. My only qualm with this particular situation is the continued shooting after Laquan (or the thug, as you'd like to call him) was on the ground. Then again, if he was still holding onto the knife...I dunno, it's a messy situation, but at least there's a dash cam for this one.

[commando]

 

Having watched the video it shows very little. What it does show is a quick turn by the perp towards the officer in question and then back onto the original path. That's what got him shot, that quick turn towards the officer. The officer responded to that threat and it was clearly a threat move.

 

This kid was at 15 feet and holding a knife, and likely had been warned, what's the issue? Back turned on not, has nothing to do with it.

 

Of course the press make no effort to educate the public on;

- The 21 foot rule and its reasoning

- The standard best practice of emptying the magazine, to ensure contact is made. And how easy it is to miss contact when under trained and under stress

- That bullets don’t always stop an individual, especially when that individual is on certain types of drugs (PCP).

 

Do cops need to call into the City Attorney for the thumbs up or down? Hey Buddy, stop charging at me for a minute while I consult with dispatch on the ROE?

 

If you want to knowingly threaten a cop, or take substances that are known to put you in a state of mind to threaten a cop or anyone for that matter, and the threat is legitimate, someone is going to get killed.

 

I wonder how many of these incidents would have ended without injury or death if the if the young street savy lads had practiced better common sense, weren't doing designer drugs and hadn't put themselves in a position to get shot.

 

Poor tactics is irrelevant to the use of deadly force. The initiator of the situation - the thug - is the sole individual responsible.

 

How many times does a person have to be shot after laying on the ground for them to be considered incapacitated?

 

I'm not disagreeing with the use of deadly force, the officer was clearly in a dangerous situation. My only qualm with this particular situation is the continued shooting after Laquan (or the thug, as you'd like to call him) was on the ground. Then again, if he was still holding onto the knife...I dunno, it's a messy situation, but at least there's a dash cam for this one.

 

i think the 16 shots can be attributed to almost a panic situation for the cop. he fired that many shots in 15 seconds. that doesn't give much time to consider whether the threat has been eliminated or not. would have been good if the knife had been dropped on the first order and not end up with this situation now. we would have 1 arrest instead of someone dead and a cop under arrest for murder.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

 

 

Having watched the video it shows very little. What it does show is a quick turn by the perp towards the officer in question and then back onto the original path. That's what got him shot, that quick turn towards the officer. The officer responded to that threat and it was clearly a threat move.

 

This kid was at 15 feet and holding a knife, and likely had been warned, what's the issue? Back turned on not, has nothing to do with it.

 

Of course the press make no effort to educate the public on;

- The 21 foot rule and its reasoning

- The standard best practice of emptying the magazine, to ensure contact is made. And how easy it is to miss contact when under trained and under stress

- That bullets don’t always stop an individual, especially when that individual is on certain types of drugs (PCP).

 

Do cops need to call into the City Attorney for the thumbs up or down? Hey Buddy, stop charging at me for a minute while I consult with dispatch on the ROE?

 

If you want to knowingly threaten a cop, or take substances that are known to put you in a state of mind to threaten a cop or anyone for that matter, and the threat is legitimate, someone is going to get killed.

 

I wonder how many of these incidents would have ended without injury or death if the if the young street savy lads had practiced better common sense, weren't doing designer drugs and hadn't put themselves in a position to get shot.

 

Poor tactics is irrelevant to the use of deadly force. The initiator of the situation - the thug - is the sole individual responsible.

 

How many times does a person have to be shot after laying on the ground for them to be considered incapacitated?

 

I'm not disagreeing with the use of deadly force, the officer was clearly in a dangerous situation. My only qualm with this particular situation is the continued shooting after Laquan (or the thug, as you'd like to call him) was on the ground. Then again, if he was still holding onto the knife...I dunno, it's a messy situation, but at least there's a dash cam for this one.

 

i think the 16 shots can be attributed to almost a panic situation for the cop. he fired that many shots in 15 seconds. that doesn't give much time to consider whether the threat has been eliminated or not. would have been good if the knife had been dropped on the first order and not end up with this situation now. we would have 1 arrest instead of someone dead and a cop under arrest for murder.

 

 

It's a reasonable argument, and the guy having a knife and making a move towards the officer is enough for the use of deadly force.

[BIGREDIOWAN]

I don't agree with this thread title, it's a little harsh, but I obviously didn't start the thread.

 

Yes, the 21 foot rule is a real thing that cops are taught in the academy. For those that aren't aware of what that means, it means if an individual is 21 feet away from you with a knife, they can close that distance and stab you before you can get your weapon out of the holster and engage the threat. It's been tested time and time again and is a real thing. Bullet proof vests don't protect against sharp objects like a knife.

 

The emptying a magazine thing is not anything I've ever heard of in 14 years of law enforcement, seven of which has been as a firearms instructor. We are taught to shoot to stop the threat, once the threat is no longer a threat you disengage. We don't shoot to kill, obviously that's a byproduct of shootings, but we shoot to stop the threat. We teach shoot center mass because it's the largest target area on the human body and studies have shown when your heart rate is around 200 bpm in a critical incident your shooting skills go way down, you lose fine motor skills, and you resort back to your level of training. The level of training you receive is ingrained into you through thousands and thousands of reps and you will do those things automatically when a critical incident occurs. I say all of this to combat the, "why can't you shoot him in the leg?" theories. It's just NOT realistically possible in deadly force situations to do so.

 

I'd be interested to know what firearms training this officer had through CPD and if he was ever taught through drills to "empty the magazine" as he may have resorted back to his training in this incident.

 

As an officer watching the video you can see this individual take the knife out of his hand and for a split second veer towards the officer in front of the dashcam video, that officer probably can't see that knife in the suspects hand due to his positioning. I'm not sure of the position of the officer who fired in this video, but I imagine he's the only one who has a view of the knife. Being the only officer who fired though is another question and had he only fired once or twice and the suspect goes down and he stops he's probably in the clear. Now if the suspect gets back up and advances on an officer then gets shot several more times then that's probably justified as well. If the suspect has a gun in his hand then there probably aren't any questions in this incident as the suspect can easily shoot someone from the ground. It's also true that people will/can continue to advance even after being shot fatally for several seconds or even a minute after the fatal shot, an aorta shot is an example.

 

I also question the timing of the charges. There has been no new earth shattering evidence that's occurred the past few months that would now thrust the DA into charges. They said they made their minds up weeks ago yet this officer has been on desk duty for a year now. This dash cam video would've been seen the next day by them and the only other evidence would've been interviews with officers on scene or witnesses. Only after a request was made to release the video and that request was granted do charges come down the day before it's release. It's a bad look whether it was intentional or not and gives the appearance of nothing would've happened if the request was never made. Don't know if that's true since he's been on desk duty for so long, but I can see the reason to question things there.

[Landlord]

No question that it's a dangerous situation and that the uneducated public doesn't understand the nuances of police safety/policy.

 

 

Yet he was still charged with murder, and has had 18+ complaints filed against him by citizens in the city. There's plenty about this that stinks (including the claims of the Burger King owner that the PD erased their security footage)

[cornographic]

Oh really? If cops feel threatened by 3" blade knives at 21' away, well, maybe they shouldn't be cops--it's ridicuous. How about stand behind your car door and talk the guy down, for e.g.? Don't they teach contain tactics at the police academy?

 

I guess since he was such a "threat", that explains the extra 15 shots fired into his dead body. Seriously, any half decent martial artist can disarm a knife wielding assailant, so why don't they teach those cops some martial arts, hand to hand combat skills or something? They also teach in martial arts that you use the appropriate level of retaliation to the level of the threat: that is, if a guy walks up and kicks you in the shin, you don't counter with a tiger claw to the throat. Capisci?

 

IMO, lethal force should never be used unless, for e.g., the guy has a loaded gun and is aiming and/or shooting it at you or he is actively attacking you in close proximity. The young man who was murdered by the cop in this case was not in close proximity nor was he running toward the cop. 10-20 feet away is not an imminent threat. The other cops on the scene did not open fire.

 

So, the bad apple cop, they say, will most likely be charged with 2nd degree murder, which looks like the correct call, IMO.

 

When these few rogue, trigger happy cops stop exercising what they evidently feel is a license to murder unarmed citizens--black citizens, in particular--for traffic or minor offenses, then, and only then, people will stop protesting the police forces around the country. You wouldn't need a "Black Lives Matter" movement.

 

I'm sick and tired of people--and the police uinion--defending or mitigating the actions of rogue cops: they are criminals and should be charged accordingly. Some of these guys have no business being cops. Sheesh, back in the day, the only thing we ever got was Rodney King being kicked on the ground(why they didn't shoot him is anybody's guess) by multiple cops and nowadays, on a weekly basis, it's shoot 1st and ask questions later. Of course, a corpse can't provide any answers.

[BIGREDIOWAN]

I guess since he was such a "threat", that explains the extra 15 shots fired into his dead body. Seriously, any half decent martial artist can disarm a knife wielding assailant, so why don't they teach those cops some martial arts, hand to hand combat skills or something? They also teach in martial arts that you use the appropriate level of retaliation to the level of the threat: that is, if a guy walks up and kicks you in the shin, you don't counter with a tiger claw to the throat. Capisci?

 

IMO, lethal force should never be used unless, for e.g., the guy has a loaded gun and is aiming and/or shooting it at you or he is actively attacking you in close proximity. The young man who was murdered by the cop in this case was not in close proximity nor was he running toward the cop. 10-20 feet away is not an imminent threat. The other cops on the scene did not open fire.

 

So, the bad apple cop, they say, will most likely be charged with 2nd degree murder, which looks like the correct call, IMO.

 

When these few rogue, trigger happy cops stop exercising what they evidently feel is a license to murder unarmed citizens--black citizens, in particular--for traffic or minor offenses, then, and only then, people will stop protesting the police forces around the country.

 

I'm sick and tired of people defending or mitigating the actions of rogue cops: they are criminals and should be charged accordingly.

Of course you had to bring race into it, you need to get over it, more white people are killed by cops than black people. Your martial artist argument is ridiculous as well, a person that knows how to use a knife can carve you up pretty damn quick, but I doubt your stubbornness to listen to that and your rage and race anger will allow you to hear that. Someone at 10-20 feet with a knife in their hand is quite obviously a threat to your life whether you want to believe that or not. That's the difference between training and keyboard warriors though. And my thoughts on the situation would apply to a black man, hispanic man, asian man, white man, etc. I don't have an opinion on this situation, I've went that way before and no matter what that doesn't end well. I'm simply relaying information.

[cornographic]

I don't agree with this thread title, it's a little harsh, but I obviously didn't start the thread.

 

Yes, the 21 foot rule is a real thing that cops are taught in the academy. For those that aren't aware of what that means, it means if an individual is 21 feet away from you with a knife, they can close that distance and stab you before you can get your weapon out of the holster and engage the threat. It's been tested time and time again and is a real thing. Bullet proof vests don't protect against sharp objects like a knife.

 

The emptying a magazine thing is not anything I've ever heard of in 14 years of law enforcement, seven of which has been as a firearms instructor. We are taught to shoot to stop the threat, once the threat is no longer a threat you disengage. We don't shoot to kill, obviously that's a byproduct of shootings, but we shoot to stop the threat. We teach shoot center mass because it's the largest target area on the human body and studies have shown when your heart rate is around 200 bpm in a critical incident your shooting skills go way down, you lose fine motor skills, and you resort back to your level of training. The level of training you receive is ingrained into you through thousands and thousands of reps and you will do those things automatically when a critical incident occurs. I say all of this to combat the, "why can't you shoot him in the leg?" theories. It's just NOT realistically possible in deadly force situations to do so.

 

I'd be interested to know what firearms training this officer had through CPD and if he was ever taught through drills to "empty the magazine" as he may have resorted back to his training in this incident.

 

As an officer watching the video you can see this individual take the knife out of his hand and for a split second veer towards the officer in front of the dashcam video, that officer probably can't see that knife in the suspects hand due to his positioning. I'm not sure of the position of the officer who fired in this video, but I imagine he's the only one who has a view of the knife. Being the only officer who fired though is another question and had he only fired once or twice and the suspect goes down and he stops he's probably in the clear. Now if the suspect gets back up and advances on an officer then gets shot several more times then that's probably justified as well. If the suspect has a gun in his hand then there probably aren't any questions in this incident as the suspect can easily shoot someone from the ground. It's also true that people will/can continue to advance even after being shot fatally for several seconds or even a minute after the fatal shot, an aorta shot is an example.

 

I also question the timing of the charges. There has been no new earth shattering evidence that's occurred the past few months that would now thrust the DA into charges. They said they made their minds up weeks ago yet this officer has been on desk duty for a year now. This dash cam video would've been seen the next day by them and the only other evidence would've been interviews with officers on scene or witnesses. Only after a request was made to release the video and that request was granted do charges come down the day before it's release. It's a bad look whether it was intentional or not and gives the appearance of nothing would've happened if the request was never made. Don't know if that's true since he's been on desk duty for so long, but I can see the reason to question things there.

Well, if I understand correctly, the cops are taught to aim for the thoracic(chest) area, which most likely will kill somebody, since, you know, the heart, lungs, aorta, etc, are are in the thorax The say they don't aim for a leg or arm, for e.g.--which would be the safer, saner, more humane way, IMO--since a leg or am is too dificult a target. So they say...

[HuskerNBigD]

Using the word thug in the title is just asking to rile up tensions, from all sides. You called the man a perpetrator in the actual post, why not use that? I feel like thug is almost synonymous with the n word at this point, after all the media coverage of the different riots / police brutality debates, and it doesn't do any good to start with it. It is seen as a blanket statement for any black criminal, the way cops are seen as evil doers after reports like this. As for the actual story, I believe the number of shots was a bit excessive, don't disagree with the initial shooting. Also, the use of martial arts as a different means of defending ones self is a bit flawed, IMHO. Yeah, you might be taught that way in martial arts - but the difference is martial arts is contest. The worst thing to happen is you lose your match. Police officers face worse case scenarios of possibly losing ones life and not all suspects are going to respect the authority, or even value a cop's life. So in that case, if I'm an officer I'm going to make sure I have enough protection to reasonably ensure my safety.

[greenmonkey51]

 

I guess since he was such a "threat", that explains the extra 15 shots fired into his dead body. Seriously, any half decent martial artist can disarm a knife wielding assailant, so why don't they teach those cops some martial arts, hand to hand combat skills or something? They also teach in martial arts that you use the appropriate level of retaliation to the level of the threat: that is, if a guy walks up and kicks you in the shin, you don't counter with a tiger claw to the throat. Capisci?

 

IMO, lethal force should never be used unless, for e.g., the guy has a loaded gun and is aiming and/or shooting it at you or he is actively attacking you in close proximity. The young man who was murdered by the cop in this case was not in close proximity nor was he running toward the cop. 10-20 feet away is not an imminent threat. The other cops on the scene did not open fire.

 

So, the bad apple cop, they say, will most likely be charged with 2nd degree murder, which looks like the correct call, IMO.

 

When these few rogue, trigger happy cops stop exercising what they evidently feel is a license to murder unarmed citizens--black citizens, in particular--for traffic or minor offenses, then, and only then, people will stop protesting the police forces around the country.

 

I'm sick and tired of people defending or mitigating the actions of rogue cops: they are criminals and should be charged accordingly.

Of course you had to bring race into it, you need to get over it, more white people are killed by cops than black people. Your martial artist argument is ridiculous as well, a person that knows how to use a knife can carve you up pretty damn quick, but I doubt your stubbornness to listen to that and your rage and race anger will allow you to hear that. Someone at 10-20 feet with a knife in their hand is quite obviously a threat to your life whether you want to believe that or not. That's the difference between training and keyboard warriors though. And my thoughts on the situation would apply to a black man, hispanic man, asian man, white man, etc. I don't have an opinion on this situation, I've went that way before and no matter what that doesn't end well. I'm simply relaying information.

 

 

Of course more white people are killed by cops, this country is 63% white. The problem is black people make up 13% of the population, but 31% of shootings by police.

[Landlord]

more white people are killed by cops than black people.

 

 

 

 

not proportionally, they aren't.

[VA Husker Fan]

BRI, do you really see the guy veer toward the officer? He's pretty clearly moving left to right to put more distance between him and the vehicle as he walks in that direction, and the most I see is that he straightens out his line for a couple steps and looks over at the officer, and gets shot. I think the defense is going to have a hard time convincing the jury that he made a threatening move or any kind of move actually toward the officer, though continuing to carry a knife when presumably the police were telling him to drop it is very stupid. I will buy that in the dark and from the officer's angle it may have looked different.

 

And for the 21 foot rule, that includes the time to unholster the weapon, right. The cop already has his weapon drawn and pointed. Does the 21 foot rule still apply when you've already got your gun trained on the target? I don't think the 21 foot rule is going to fly with a jury either.

 

It's a tough job, of that I'm certain, but I don't think this cop was fit for it.

[cornographic]

 

I guess since he was such a "threat", that explains the extra 15 shots fired into his dead body. Seriously, any half decent martial artist can disarm a knife wielding assailant, so why don't they teach those cops some martial arts, hand to hand combat skills or something? They also teach in martial arts that you use the appropriate level of retaliation to the level of the threat: that is, if a guy walks up and kicks you in the shin, you don't counter with a tiger claw to the throat. Capisci?

 

IMO, lethal force should never be used unless, for e.g., the guy has a loaded gun and is aiming and/or shooting it at you or he is actively attacking you in close proximity. The young man who was murdered by the cop in this case was not in close proximity nor was he running toward the cop. 10-20 feet away is not an imminent threat. The other cops on the scene did not open fire.

 

So, the bad apple cop, they say, will most likely be charged with 2nd degree murder, which looks like the correct call, IMO.

 

When these few rogue, trigger happy cops stop exercising what they evidently feel is a license to murder unarmed citizens--black citizens, in particular--for traffic or minor offenses, then, and only then, people will stop protesting the police forces around the country.

 

I'm sick and tired of people defending or mitigating the actions of rogue cops: they are criminals and should be charged accordingly.

Of course you had to bring race into it, you need to get over it, more white people are killed by cops than black people. Your martial artist argument is ridiculous as well, a person that knows how to use a knife can carve you up pretty damn quick, but I doubt your stubbornness to listen to that and your rage and race anger will allow you to hear that. Someone at 10-20 feet with a knife in their hand is quite obviously a threat to your life whether you want to believe that or not. That's the difference between training and keyboard warriors though. And my thoughts on the situation would apply to a black man, hispanic man, asian man, white man, etc. I don't have an opinion on this situation, I've went that way before and no matter what that doesn't end well. I'm simply relaying information.

 

Plz explain the 17 rounds into the body? Something's seriously wrong there.

 

Yeah, well, I call bullsh#t on the cop training. If that's the way they train cops, it's bullsh#t, and that's why across the country they are calling for the retraining of cops. If a cop can't figure out how to deal with a guy 20' away--who has a knife--w/o murdering him, then something's wrong. This particular case, I repeat, doesn't show the guy charging the cop. No, the truth here, is rambo, rogue cop is trigger happy--possibly racist--and just felt he could murder a black kid and get away with it. They also didn't reveal the footage until ` 1 year post hence. yeah, no cover up there. That's my take. The cop has/had ~18 complaints of various sorts filed against him by the public in the past, so yeah, I trust him.

 

If this guy doesn't go to jail for 2nd degree murder, or at the very least, manslaughter, then don't expect public outrage to go away anytime soon.

 

I actually wasn't identifying race that strongly in my post, but since black people kep gettting shot by cops--usually white cops--is all they show on the news, then, ok, let's go with that. The reason why more whites are killed by cops--which I don't agree with either--is most likely due to the fact that whites make up the majority of people in the country. Blacks are killed at a higher rate, and they are twice as likely to be unarmed.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwielsLdiLHJAhUETSYKHd70DsEQFgg0MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fus-news%2F2015%2Fjun%2F01%2Fblack-americans-killed-by-police-analysis&usg=AFQjCNHEovryEKiCu043bqZMIDIK8hMFmw