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I get you are for gun control, but please don't pretend guns are not the most important factor for why this country is what it is.. FREE!

And here I thought our freedoms that made us free.

 

It was being able to own anything we want, all along!

 

Wait, that's not true. We can own many things, but none of them are treated as sacred constitutional protections.

 

Except guns. So our ability to own this one kind of product in particular. That's the key to our ever-loving freedom.

 

America!

 

It was said jokingly earlier in this thread, but in a very real sense. Don't make anyone mad in this country. They'll shoot you.

 

That crackling of eggshells beneath your feet is the sweet tune of liberty, friend!

 

 

This is extremely off base. Absolutely wrong, and I agree with huskerfan2000 100% on this one.

 

Here is the one overwhelming idea that the genius men who framed our constitution intended, that SO MANY people today do not understand and dismiss:

 

The government should fear the citizens of the country, NOT the other way around.

 

People fearing the government means that the government has exceeded its intended scope, and we are a few steps away from a tyranny in America. It's scary stuff when you really think about it...

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Wait. Guns are the biggest reason why Americans are free?

 

Jesus, I get tired of that fairy tale.

 

You'd think there would be plenty of examples of freedom-loving Americans using handguns to thwart the enemies of freedom.

 

And of course you can find stories about the plucky person who chases off a would-be burglar or attacker by having a handgun at the ready. The NRA is good at collecting and distributing those stories.

 

But for every one of those you'll have a dozen people who commit suicide with that ready handgun, or a toddler who shoots himself or a sibling or a parent with that ready handgun, or an owner who kills himself by accident with that ready handgun, or a murder committed in a moment of passion made possible by that ready handgun, or the gun-owner killed by a previously unarmed assailant who used their own handgun against them.

 

And those are just handguns, which nobody is trying to take away from you.

 

High capacity automatic weapons make absolutely no sense unless you're keen on slaughter, or fantasies of enemy invasion.

 

Again, I don't have the answer and I'm not even keen on legal recourse.

 

I just want to know how we got to this place where people think guns make America great.

  • Fire 2
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Wait. Guns are the biggest reason why Americans are free?

 

Jesus, I get tired of that fairy tale.

 

You'd think there would be plenty of examples of freedom-loving Americans using handguns to thwart the enemies of freedom.

 

And of course you can find stories about the plucky person who chases off a would-be burglar or attacker by having a handgun at the ready. The NRA is good at collecting and distributing those stories.

 

But for every one of those you'll have a dozen people who commit suicide with that ready handgun, or a toddler who shoots himself or a sibling or a parent with that ready handgun, or an owner who kills himself by accident with that ready handgun, or a murder committed in a moment of passion made possible by that ready handgun, or the gun-owner killed by a previously unarmed assailant who used their own handgun against them.

 

And those are just handguns, which nobody is trying to take away from you.

 

High capacity automatic weapons make absolutely no sense unless you're keen on slaughter, or fantasies of enemy invasion.

 

Again, I don't have the answer and I'm not even keen on legal recourse.

 

I just want to know how we got to this place where people think guns make America great.

 

 

Who said that? not me.. i said the gun is what set us free, it is what gave us freedom. you can deny it all you wait, but history disagrees with you.

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THE LARGEST MASS SHOOTING IN US HISTORY HAPPENED December 29,1890. When 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota were murdered by federal agents & members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND PROTECTION. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children.

Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

The Second Amendment, the right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and it refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defensive purposes, should such tyranny arise in the United States.

Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we should vehemently resist any attempts to infringe on our Rights to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we will be totally stripped of any ability to defend ourselves and our families.

 

 

gun control and what it can lead too

What you've just done here is taken a conversation about how to better regulate the dispersement of guns and turned it into 'here come the Liberals trying to take all our guns."

 

You can pretty it up all you want.. Gun control is contrary to the second amendment!

So you wouldn't be willing to wait a few days to receive a purchased firearm/require training or evaluation if it meant the number of mass shooting casualities would decrease?

It's not an amenedmant issue, it's an issue that as a society we are broken and there are crazy POS out there that want to harm people. As a gun owner I think it's pretty clear we can make some sacrifices if it changes things for the better.

 

The problem is more laws won't do anything. Why is this so hard to understand. it is already illegal to kill, but it still happens

No, you don't want to get it.

I own 4 guns:

-.22 rifle I bought at 19yrs old. No training, no permit, no nothing. Walked into a Wal Mart and bought it.

-A Glock 17 Gen 4. Went to sheriffs office, bought $10 permit. Got it in mail a couple days later. Went to Scheels and bought it, went home with it

-A Walther P22 for my wife. Had gift cards to Cabelas. Went, waited several hours because Xmas time, bought it and went home with it.

-A Mosin Nagant Russian sniper rifle. Went to a local auction and bought it.

Now you tell me, if I can do that, couldn't some loser who snapped and decides they want to conduct a mass shooting do the same if their background is clean?

That's the problem. It's not the terrorists or gang related gun violence that stricter laws would be aimed at. It's the nutjobs who go unnoticed until they snap. It's those people that shoot up schools then the next day the neighbor says "He was such a nice guy, can't believe he did this". Those are the people that could poetentially be prevented, not fully but a little. Isn't that worth it? Aren't a few hundred lives a year worth a little extra screening?

 

No, I'm sorry to say, you don't get it..

 

What law would strop that very same person from getting a gun? Remember they just snapped, allowing them to get guns in the first place. Waiting 2, or 3 or 4 days? how would that have stopped this guy? it wouldn't have!

 

The problem is not the gun, it is the person. The lack of morality, the lack of respect for human life.

 

 

Please, tell me what law would have stopped this guy?

Way to ignore most of the post. I'll suggest again, read the whole thread.

I don't need to read the whole thread, just the last post of yours.. What law would have stopped this guy?

 

I see you have 4 guns good for you.. how the heck are you supposed to know if someone snaps years or even months down the rode? You can't!

 

I get the guy would have been able to get guns.. ok.. if others would have had a gun many fewer people would have died.

Yes, you do need to read the rest of the thread.

I spent all Monday and part of yesterday defending the the fact that simple law adjustments and waiting periods aren't the answer or quick fix many think they could be.

So I'll ask again, is a little extra screening or some new regulating etc. really too much to ask to TRY and prevent some casualties? Simple yes or no will suffice.

it isn't a simple "yes" or "no" and you know it... Do you have any proof it will make the slightest bit of difference? No, you don't.. so you are willing to allow further infringement not knowing if it will matter?

 

What you argued before doesn't mean anything. You are NOW talking about gun control..

 

You don't throw something against the wall and hope it sticks, especially when those laws further infringe on the peoples right to bear arms!

 

AND you continue to ignore my question.. it is a simple question to answer!

I'll just assume your answer is No. Good day.

 

Ah yes, run away from answering my question.. Good idea!

You are literally making no sense, what question did you ask that I'm dodging? The what Law that exists question? If so, there isn't a law here that currently exists, that's kind of the problem we were discussing. One needs to be figured out, how are you not getting that?

 

Now, would you like to answer the simple one I gave you? Would you be willing to wait a few days/go through a more extensive background check andbor psyche evaluation to purchase firearms if it meant there was a chance it could reduce mass shootings?

 

Yes, or no.

 

 

No, I didn't ask what existing law. I clearly asked what law would fix this?

 

 

Please, tell me what law would have stopped this guy?

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People fearing the government means that the government has exceeded its intended scope, and we are a few steps away from a tyranny in America. It's scary stuff when you really think about it...

Not even AR-15s and high capacity mags cause the government to fear its citizenry. Don't kid yourself.

 

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On that note...

i said the gun is what set us free, it is what gave us freedom. you can deny it all you wait, but history disagrees with you.

The question of whether America should maintain or abolish its military hasn't come up.

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There isn't any law, short of disarming everyone in the entire world, that can stop a person from getting a gun. Drugs are illegal but those are still around..

I don't understand your obstinance. Using your rhetoric and argument's foundation, you could argue all laws are pointless because people are going to break them. That's a fundamentally flawed perspective.

 

A lot of things in this country have been studied and adjusted. 50 years ago seat belts weren't in cars, but researchers studied their benefits and now the vast majority of people use them, saving thousands if not millions of lives. Why can't we take a similar analytical approach to guns?

 

Your conscience appears to be completely accepting of the 23,000 people that have been shot and almost 6,000 that have died this year due to gun violence. This is astronomically worse than any other country in the world. Those deaths can be attributed to a number of things, but illegal weapon sales and poor gun owner responsibility play a key role.

 

There are a lot of things we could do to address the problem outside of confiscating weapons.

 

 

 

Are you also complaining about abortions, or is that ok with you.. you know it is a choice after all, right? What about car deaths, there were 33,000ish motor vehicle traffic deaths, are you championing for car removal?

 

You are 100% correct, there are a number of things we could address outside of guns.. Are you championing for those, or just gun restrictions?

 

 

EDIT: on seat belts.. There is no way to predict if a seat belt will save you life or actually hurt you, it depends on the wreck itself.

A common deflect technique while debating is to ask questions on top of questions instead of answering the questions directed at you. I'd enjoy to hear your thoughts on the points I raised to you before I address yours.

 

First, do you agree your argument is fundamentally flawed? Using your foundation, all laws are pointless because people will break them.

 

Second, why can't we take an analytical approach to guns? We do with almost everything else in this country.

 

Third, are you OK with the fact that 23,000 people have been injured by guns and 6,000 have died due to gun violence in just six months?

 

----------

 

Now, to your points. First, I don't like abortions, but I'm struggling to see the analogy or connection you're attempting to make to gun control.

 

Second, motor vehicles and motor vehicle safety have been studied, refined and had laws put in place to save lives. You also have to be 16 years old, pass a written and driving test and avoid legal trouble to keep a license. Buying a gun takes an age requirement and three days of minimal background checking for an item designed for one purpose - killing.

 

Third, I'm championing for several approaches to gun control including more in depth background checks, psyche evaluations and harsher punishments for people who sell weapons illegally. I've never once said to confiscate all guns.

 

Lastly, seatbelts have undeniable evidence that they save lives and prevent serious injuries. It's not about prediction - it's about lowering risks.

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You could rephrase your last sentence to say "Why should law abiding gun owners suffer for the actions of a few?"

 

They shouldn't, they don't, and reasonable gun reform doesn't make them "suffer".

And how does additional policing of peace loving muslims make them suffer? In trying to make your argument you continue to lose ground.
No he doesn't. If you don't understand how it makes them suffer, you're not trying and you have no ability to empathize with the people who already unfairly get "a little extra policing." People of Arab descent and Blacks and basically anyone not White already go through that, from higher pullover rates to more airport security pat-downs. Being continually profiled is a hell of a lot worse than being asked to do a little extra stuff to buy an item that can kill someone instantly.

 

 

We need to be focused on getting the bad guys and have a post 9/11 mindset, and that includes conducting more profiling of mosques containing potential bad guys. The FBI was onto this Orlando shooter and were told by Hillary and Obama to back off for the same silly logic you are spewimg. As a nation we will have to give up things like this type of profiling, longer lines at airports, additional profiling of internet usage by ALL Americans, etc...if we want to remain safe. If you value political correctness over keeping the country safe (its not a false choice, its what you are advocating in here), then that is your prerogative, but I fundamentally disagree.

 

As for my personal solution to this entire threat, I think both sides need to come together and offer a comprehensive approach, including:

 

1. We need to be the aggressor in the War on Terror, and have the POTUS and all our leadership treat terrorism as the #1 issue facing our nation. Somehow in the last 7 years we have lost sight of this. Does this mean we need to replicate Iraq...no. But the more we take the fight to the terrorists overseas and disrupt their networks and the influence they seem to be having on homegrown terrorists, the better off we will all be.

 

2. We need more profiling across the board of potential suspects, including but not limited to mosques. This requires giving up some personal/civil liberties to allow the FBI and CIA to dig into areas of concern. It's also known that the FBI is overloaded and does not have enough help to follow every lead. The #1 purpose of a federal government is to keep its citizenry safe. We have spent more time and attention focused on social justice programs and not enough on protecting our country.

 

3. Regarding gun control, if there are loopholes in the current processing, they need to be fixed. We need to ensure there are thorough enough background checks to keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys. Given bad guys can use multiple means to kill others, we also need to look at those purchasing other types of material for bomb making and/or chemical weapons.

 

4. We need to return to Bush's approach with other countries that you are either with us or the terrorists. No more pussyfooting around and worrying about political correctness and having other countries views of the US approach dictate our policies.

 

5. We need comprehensive immigration reform (not an easy feat I know) and better processes to check all non-citizens who are entering our borders. This cannot happen overnight, but its pretty simply conceptually. Most people would not allow a stranger into their home that they do not know anything about. Why would we allow this to happen at our borders. This does not mean legal immigration stops, but it does mean that we are going to be more clear on who is coming and going.

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Wait. Guns are the biggest reason why Americans are free?

 

Jesus, I get tired of that fairy tale.

 

You'd think there would be plenty of examples of freedom-loving Americans using handguns to thwart the enemies of freedom.

 

And of course you can find stories about the plucky person who chases off a would-be burglar or attacker by having a handgun at the ready. The NRA is good at collecting and distributing those stories.

 

But for every one of those you'll have a dozen people who commit suicide with that ready handgun, or a toddler who shoots himself or a sibling or a parent with that ready handgun, or an owner who kills himself by accident with that ready handgun, or a murder committed in a moment of passion made possible by that ready handgun, or the gun-owner killed by a previously unarmed assailant who used their own handgun against them.

 

And those are just handguns, which nobody is trying to take away from you.

 

High capacity automatic weapons make absolutely no sense unless you're keen on slaughter, or fantasies of enemy invasion.

 

Again, I don't have the answer and I'm not even keen on legal recourse.

 

I just want to know how we got to this place where people think guns make America great.

 

 

Who said that? not me.. i said the gun is what set us free, it is what gave us freedom. you can deny it all you wait, but history disagrees with you.

 

 

History disagrees with tons of stuff on this thread.

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I'm as mindful as anyone when it comes to protecting the constitutional right to bear arms. I believe it is important that the average, law abiding citizen continue to be allowed to obtain and have firearms if they so choose. While hunting, sport and self protection are all very good reasons to have guns, the main reason to prevent "them" from taking our guns away is, to keep our government in check and not let the citizenry get in a position to be too easily tyrannized by our government (God forbid it ever comes to that). BUT (and this is a big but), I see absolutely no harm in screening potential gun owners, preventing felons and mentally unstable people from obtaining them, and instituting reasonable limits on the types of weapons that the average person is allowed to have. Will this prevent all harm or keep mass murders from taking place? No it won't. People kill people, guns don't. But, certain guns are built to inflict maximum casualities in short order and certain people have no business being in control of a firearm. If you want an assault rifle with a large capacity magazine, I don't think it is asking too much to require training and licensing. No law is going to prevent every tragedy from happening but some sensible controls would not be out of line in a civilized society.

 

If you're of sound mind and don't have any felonies or other terrorist or law breaking tendencies, then yes, I think you should be able to own a gun for whatever reason you deem fit. I even think a high magazine capacity weapon that is designed to do little more than kill is okay as long as you pass the check, state that you want it for self protection, and receive training and have to be licensed. This would allow the average, law abiding person to still keep and bear arms. And I am fully aware that criminals and terrorists who are so motivated will still be able to obtain weapons and cause problems. I think everyone realizes that laws don't prevent people from breaking the law. I just see no harm in getting that background check and being subjected to some reasonable limits to weed out some potential problems.

 

The problem I see in this debate is that many are unwilling to concede any reasonable controls and many others are unwilling acknowledge that there are good reasons for responsible citizens to bear arms. Of course any responsible gun control measures come with the slippery slope possibilities of what will "they" take away next. I just fail to see how anyone could be opposed to keeping weapons out of the wrong hands or how some weapons may require a few more questions and/or training or licensing to be able to have them. I think as long as we are vigilant it will never have to get to the point where reasonable gun control or the 2nd amendment right are ever in serious danger.

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THE LARGEST MASS SHOOTING IN US HISTORY HAPPENED December 29,1890. When 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota were murdered by federal agents & members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms “FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND PROTECTION”. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children.

Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

The Second Amendment, the right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and it refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defensive purposes, should such tyranny arise in the United States.

Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we should vehemently resist any attempts to infringe on our Rights to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we will be totally stripped of any ability to defend ourselves and our families.

 

 

gun control and what it can lead too

 

What you've just done here is taken a conversation about how to better regulate the dispersement of guns and turned it into 'here come the Liberals trying to take all our guns."

 

 

 

You can pretty it up all you want.. Gun control is contrary to the second amendment!

 

 

It's tiresome to keep bringing it up, but surely the words "well-regulated" were inserted for a reason by the authors of that sacred document.

 

Oh sh#t. You have a totally canned response for that already, don't you?

 

Fire away.

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