Trump's America

[Moiraine]

IMO*

The collapse of this country as we've known it is inevitable. It's not a matter of if but when. Trump didn't start it but he and the current Senate/House are accelerating it.

 

And when/if the Democrats ever gain control again, they'll be too incompetent to reverse things, rinse and repeat.


I will never understand why people are so opposed to big government and at the same time are just fine with letting mega corporations completely take over. Trump & Co are doing their best to remove more safeguards (Scary Big Government safeguards) we have in place to hold corporations accountable, from allowing them to pollute more to ending net neutrality to reducing the ability to sue banks. This stuff has been eroding for decades but they are trying their best to make it happen faster and likely pocketing a bunch of $ for their efforts.

Sucks not being able to do anything about it.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Moiraine

[Danny Bateman]

15 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

IMO*

The collapse of this country as we've known it is inevitable. It's not a matter of if but when. Trump didn't start it but he and the current Senate/House are accelerating it.

 

And when/if the Democrats ever gain control again, they'll be too incompetent to reverse things, rinse and repeat.


I will never understand why people are so opposed to big government and at the same time are just fine with letting mega corporations completely take over. Trump & Co are doing their best to remove more safeguards (Scary Big Government safeguards) we have in place to hold corporations accountable, from allowing them to pollute more to ending net neutrality to reducing the ability to sue banks. This stuff has been eroding for decades but they are trying their best to make it happen faster and likely pocketing a bunch of $ for their efforts.

Sucks not being able to do anything about it.

 

This is going to sound bad, but as a society, we're largely pretty ignorant and susceptible to propaganda and fear. If you can utilize the right rhetorical tools, you can manipulate people pretty easily.

 

And tribalism. You pick your team, decide your parameters - who are the good guys and the bad guys - and ride the wave. In that sense, the Dems and the GOP are not that dissimilar - they just have different boogeyman.

 

I'm with you. I don't understand how people don't freak the f#@+ out watching these pols line their pockets as they burn a functioning government down around them.

 

If there's a silver lining, the crony, crooked capitalism and utter oligarchy of the Trump admin have pissed off the left so much they're going to shift left and become a more Bernie or Corbyn-esque outfit. I'm thinking a more traditional party rooted in labor and populist liberal economic policies. There's going to be a pretty good market for someone to clean up this mess and start looking out for the average American instead of just Trump's golf buddies by the end of this, I'd imagine. 

 

I think that type of FDR type of liberal could run very well against the corrupt, soulless husk the GOP has become today.

[RedDenver]

8 hours ago, Moiraine said:

IMO*

The collapse of this country as we've known it is inevitable. It's not a matter of if but when. Trump didn't start it but he and the current Senate/House are accelerating it.

 

And when/if the Democrats ever gain control again, they'll be too incompetent to reverse things, rinse and repeat.


I will never understand why people are so opposed to big government and at the same time are just fine with letting mega corporations completely take over. Trump & Co are doing their best to remove more safeguards (Scary Big Government safeguards) we have in place to hold corporations accountable, from allowing them to pollute more to ending net neutrality to reducing the ability to sue banks. This stuff has been eroding for decades but they are trying their best to make it happen faster and likely pocketing a bunch of $ for their efforts.

Sucks not being able to do anything about it.

That's exactly what I've been thinking for years. I used to think the US would collapse during my grandchildren's lifetime but I'm thinking it's now becoming possible and even likely to happen during my lifetime.

 

8 hours ago, dudeguyy said:

 

This is going to sound bad, but as a society, we're largely pretty ignorant and susceptible to propaganda and fear. If you can utilize the right rhetorical tools, you can manipulate people pretty easily.

 

And tribalism. You pick your team, decide your parameters - who are the good guys and the bad guys - and ride the wave. In that sense, the Dems and the GOP are not that dissimilar - they just have different boogeyman.

 

I'm with you. I don't understand how people don't freak the f#@+ out watching these pols line their pockets as they burn a functioning government down around them.

 

If there's a silver lining, the crony, crooked capitalism and utter oligarchy of the Trump admin have pissed off the left so much they're going to shift left and become a more Bernie or Corbyn-esque outfit. I'm thinking a more traditional party rooted in labor and populist liberal economic policies. There's going to be a pretty good market for someone to clean up this mess and start looking out for the average American instead of just Trump's golf buddies by the end of this, I'd imagine. 

 

I think that type of FDR type of liberal could run very well against the corrupt, soulless husk the GOP has become today.

It's possible, and man do I hope you're right. But I don't see the new left actually being able to accomplish anything because of the gridlock in Congress.

[zoogs]

I would distinguish between the collapse of the country and the collapse of its democracy. 

 

The country will remain strong, because it will be massively wealthy and retain the world's most powerful and advanced military. The people will accept this corporate paradise because goodness, they already do at alarming levels. People in other stable, strong countries put up with worse. It will be so easy to sell the present and new serfdom was freedom. "I chose not to go on Obamacare and got fined"? Government overreach. "I don't have the money to pay for all these healthcare costs"? S'a free country baby, you made your choices. 

 

The protests of people who know better will (as if they are not already) reduced to the "whining" of the snowflake elites. Fewer and fewer people will obtain higher education, and even fewer will be in arts and humanities fields. The repeal of net neutrality can further be harnessed to wall off these voices; the tech industry not only favored but lobbied for this new tax bill, and they'll adapt as needed. Bad results will be blamed, successfully, on external enemies or internal political opponents. Both will be crushed. But in history, it will go down as the resurgent glory days of American triumph.

[Danny Bateman]

3 hours ago, RedDenver said:

That's exactly what I've been thinking for years. I used to think the US would collapse during my grandchildren's lifetime but I'm thinking it's now becoming possible and even likely to happen during my lifetime.

 

It's possible, and man do I hope you're right. But I don't see the new left actually being able to accomplish anything because of the gridlock in Congress.

 

I'm just finishing up a book on FDR's New Deal. He had a few structural advantages that someone attempting a new New Deal probably wouldn't have. 

FDR took over for Herbert Hoover, who fair or not, was inexorably linked to the Great Depression. Whether you can blame a stock market crash on a president is debatable, but Hoover handling of the situation thereafter obviously didn't stop the bleeding - he believed in fiscal austerity and a balanced budget as a panacea until the bloody end - and the U.S. economy continued it's freefall until FDR demolished him in the election of 1932. FDR won by nearly 18 points, and the margins were such that conservatives absolutely hemorrhaged Congressional seats. FDR entered office with an incredibly powerful mandate and a supermajority that made Obama's in 2008 look like child's play.

 

And, of course, the Democratic party back then had much broader appeal than today's does. They took all those seats in on the strength of southern Democrats, who, while some were openly racist, formed a powerful coalition that allowed FDR to accomplish very important reforms that helped people from all walks of life. 

He also had public sentiment on his side. The country largely associated Hoover's conservative policies with the economic damage the Great Depression wrought. This made it much easier for FDR to successfully spend much of his presidency riffing about the evils of big business and corporate greed. He successfully cast them as the enemy of the common man and thus the public mostly viewed him as their champion. This is how we got major changes like the TVA, the PWA, the FDIC & Social Security.

 

The Supreme Court was roughly the equivalent of today's, so that shouldn't be too much of an obstacle if it stays roughly the same during the remainder of Trump's admin. If a conservative retires in 2020 under a Dem administration, it could be a good spot for them. Roosevelt's gambit to try to pack the Supreme Court was the blackest mark on his legacy.

Ultimately, though... FDR had the public sentiment, the right conditions and the numbers in Congress on his side to do great things. I think it's very likely that a left-wing president in his mold could very well have public sentiment after the unveiled, unabashed graft of the Trump administration. The conditions remain to seen - I've seen talk that we're about to enter a global recession cycle, which Trump's policies could very well exacerbate. If we personally enter a recession in the U.S., Trump/Pence will absolutely be a one-term president. They don't have the approval ratings to sustain that kind of storm. Congress is where things get hairy. I don't see a way a new FDR enters their presidency with the kind of Congressional advantage the original had. Not with the geographic distribution of voters and gerrymandering being what it is. As is, I think a new FDR could campaign extremely well and in fact sail to the presidency, but perhaps struggle to govern in this environment. I did and I still do find it somewhat naive that Bernie's idea for passing major legislation was large rallies to build public support. That's not tenable in today's political climate.

[RedDenver]

FDR also had powerful unions and socialist and communist political parties pushing for the New Deal, which scared the crap out of a lot of the wealthy.

[Danny Bateman]

3 hours ago, RedDenver said:

FDR also had powerful unions and socialist and communist political parties pushing for the New Deal, which scared the crap out of a lot of the wealthy.

 

Ahhh yes. The unions thing is important. The book didn't mention the Communist elements as much, but union support was incredibly powerful back then. Unions have been extremely marginalized by the rightward shift. Right-to-work laws are very damaging for them. It's still important to have the AFL-CIO and the remaining prominent unions on your side if you are on the left, but they are a shell of what they used to be. Last election you also had union rank and file defecting because they felt Trump was really a savior for the American worker and Clinton was a phony.

Whomever runs in 2020 should take on right-to-work laws and point out that Trump is the actual fraud who is killing workers with his policies. If they allow him to skate by again as some working-class hero... well, they just shouldn't do that.

Edited December 3, 2017 by dudeguyy

[Fru]

 

Wait, I thought the guy who insults POWs and attacks War Widows, was all about honoring the vets. Oh well. At least he's not politically correct. Thank goodness for that. 

 

[commando]

ahhh...the poor little donnie snowflake got a negative tweet so he had to block the vets.

[BigRedBuster]

The idea that he supports law enforcement and the military/vets is a huge farce.  

[deedsker]

 

I guess this belongs here...whatever

[zoogs]

 

It's so hard to express in words how detestable a human being Roy Moore is, and how saddening that he has so many supporters, even fans.

 

I posted this in "Trump's America" as a warning for where we find ourselves slipping, but really, this is just America America. It's been here some time. 

 

 

[schriznoeder]

 

[commando]

13 hours ago, zoogs said:

 

It's so hard to express in words how detestable a human being Roy Moore is, and how saddening that he has so many supporters, even fans.

 

I posted this in "Trump's America" as a warning for where we find ourselves slipping, but really, this is just America America. It's been here some time. 

 

 

if he/she/it/whatever is older than 16 they are probably safe anyway

[BigRedBuster]