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Repealing the ACA under Trump


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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

Sorry Elf, that is pure bullsh#t. People should not have to go broke and work their whole lives to pay off medical care debt. There has to be a better way. What your Grandpa did was noble and to be commended but it shouldn't be required.

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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

Sorry Elf, that is pure bullsh#t. People should not have to go broke and work their whole lives to pay off medical care debt. There has to be a better way. What your Grandpa did was noble and to be commended but it shouldn't be required.

 

Agreed. And the frustrating part of this is that literally dozens of countries have already solved this problem - for decades now. The US is the richest country in the history of the world, how are we not able to implement a known solution?
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So when a doctor gets a bonus from a pharmaceutical company for prescribing needless medication, it doesn't concern or bother you?

It's not happening as much as you think. Most physicians who are affiliated with an institution either have limits in what they can "earn" for consulting/speaking or they're not allowed to do anything with industry.

 

You can verify individuals payments here (as well as state info, hospital info)- if you want to see if your physician is working with industry: https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

 

What about doctors that own their own practice? Isn't that quite common? (I honestly don't know.)

 

Who cares if they do?

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Speaking only on the topic of the mandate...

 

 

When I was young I was incredibly healthy, only got sick on very rare occasions, so I never bought health insurance. I simply didn't need it.

 

I disagree with this. As far as you knew you were healthy, and fortunately you didn't end up needing it. What if you had suddenly learned otherwise -- or your situation unexpectedly changed? I'm glad it didn't, but what are your options then?

 

Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

 

As an employer that offers full health benefits, this comment is full bullsh#t.

 

So...you only want to work for me until you get terminally ill and I'm the one paying for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes....I've been in this situation before.

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I am not saying ALL blame goes on the insurance companies. I would say out of all the factors/parties involved, this is the single largest individual contributor that can be changed. Conservatively on the order of 30% of the whole, imo. There is definitely an issue with the actual rising costs of healthcare. However premium increases have outpaced healthcare cost increases for a long time.

We have done a number of projects for the largest healthcare insurance providers the past couple years. One thing we found was for every 1.2% increase in healthcare costs, premiums were raised over 3%. This is on the conservative side. The corollary would be for a car manufacturer to build the sales commission into the vehicle price delivered to the car lot. The car lot then adds sales commission into the price of the vehicle on top their margin after delivery. Once the vehicle is sold, they charge commission a third time on top of the price of the vehicle. However, only the first commission calculation is paid to the sales person. No other industry can double to triple stack cost margins the way healthcare insurance does.

These insurance providers routinely spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to save tens of thousands of dollars or less. One of the largest healthcare providers in this country automatically placed 10% of the incoming claims into research status for revenue deferment. This required several hundred staff to handle the call volume created plus numerous additional people to actually research the claim. Given that most claims were small, this was far from cost effective. We could have implemented a software solution for ~$230k that would have attained better revenue deferment with a cost savings to the company on the order of ~$30mil annually. The client could not get past their internal politics to move on it.

The waste in the largest healthcare insurance companies is brazen at best and criminal at worst. These companies functionally establish the market premium prices. I have never seen the largest healthcare provider raise premiums without the next 20+ companies doing the same, like dominoes.

I could go on with more stories and these examples are the tamest of the bunch. Don't get me wrong, healthcare providers, pharma companies, insured, insurance providers, government, employers, etc all have plenty of blame to share in this. From my perspective though, insurance providers are the least incentivized to improve efficiency and control costs out of all parties involved and it's not even close.

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Two things I'd like to touch on quick:

Elf brought up the concept of attaining good private healthcare by finding the right job that will offer it. Unfortunately, as was said, that doesn't work for some folks. Cancer, disability and other expensive chronic conditions can rack up a huge bill in no time, and usually folks with those conditions literally CAN'T work a job for insurance purposes. Those with disabilities may not qualify for Medicare. So for this subset of folks, the private insurance market is entirely out of the picture, as well as some government plans. I personally have a moral problem with just hanging those people out to dry. I know it's not the smartest move fiscally, but I was taught that we should look out for the weakest among us, not cast them aside.

Secondly, unfortunately, Elf, one of the best parts of the ACA were the provisions that put a cap on the amount insurance companies can charge their older, sicker patients. I believe the blanket rule is that they currently can charge older patients no more than 3x the amount they charge younger people. From what I've read, Republicans may be tossing aside those protections with their plans. I don't like hearing that and I hope it doesn't come to fruition.

 

Best of luck with your health, man! I hope you get back to feeling as good as you can.

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I am not saying ALL blame goes on the insurance companies. I would say out of all the factors/parties involved, this is the single largest individual contributor that can be changed. Conservatively on the order of 30% of the whole, imo. There is definitely an issue with the actual rising costs of healthcare. However premium increases have outpaced healthcare cost increases for a long time.

 

We have done a number of projects for the largest healthcare insurance providers the past couple years. One thing we found was for every 1.2% increase in healthcare costs, premiums were raised over 3%. This is on the conservative side. The corollary would be for a car manufacturer to build the sales commission into the vehicle price delivered to the car lot. The car lot then adds sales commission into the price of the vehicle on top their margin after delivery. Once the vehicle is sold, they charge commission a third time on top of the price of the vehicle. However, only the first commission calculation is paid to the sales person. No other industry can double to triple stack cost margins the way healthcare insurance does.

 

These insurance providers routinely spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to save tens of thousands of dollars or less. One of the largest healthcare providers in this country automatically placed 10% of the incoming claims into research status for revenue deferment. This required several hundred staff to handle the call volume created plus numerous additional people to actually research the claim. Given that most claims were small, this was far from cost effective. We could have implemented a software solution for ~$230k that would have attained better revenue deferment with a cost savings to the company on the order of ~$30mil annually. The client could not get past their internal politics to move on it.

 

The waste in the largest healthcare insurance companies is brazen at best and criminal at worst. These companies functionally establish the market premium prices. I have never seen the largest healthcare provider raise premiums without the next 20+ companies doing the same, like dominoes.

 

I could go on with more stories and these examples are the tamest of the bunch. Don't get me wrong, healthcare providers, pharma companies, insured, insurance providers, government, employers, etc all have plenty of blame to share in this. From my perspective though, insurance providers are the least incentivized to improve efficiency and control costs out of all parties involved and it's not even close.

 

Having your insight here has been fantastic, Colo. Thanks for bringing your info to the table.

 

This to me illustrates the problem with a strictly free market-based approach. Encouraging competition and consumer choice is great, but there's little there as is to incentivize insurance companies to bring costs down without some level of government intervention, IMO.

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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

I'll call 100% bullsh#t on a 1950s-era American Blacksmith making enough money to 1) pay off a $250,000 debt starting in the 1950s and 2) doing it while working as a Blacksmith.

 

First, a Blacksmith is a uniquely unusual trade to be engaged in in the 1950s. But they exist today, so let's say he had a tremendously unique niche job. OK.

 

Today, a Blacksmith will make between $30,000 and $75,000. In 1950s money, that's $2,500-$6,300 per year. Presuming your grandpa was an EXCELLENT Blacksmith, let's make him a top earner at $6,300/year, and heck, because we're generous, let's double his salary.

 

So your grandpa, as a 1950s-era Blacksmith par excellence, made $12,600 per year. He had bills, obviously, like food (29% of his expenditures in the 1950s), housing (27%), apparel (11%), and healthcare (5%). We won't even count his expenditures on kids (presuming only one, your dad), travel (for grandma's treatment) entertainment, or anything else. He lived a Spartan life. At $12,600 per year, with those normal expenditures, he would have had about $3,500 per year to apply to that debt.

 

Even presuming no interest on that debt, it would have taken him 71 years to pay it off, again presuming zero other expenditures and no money spent on children or anything like travel, a new couch, a TV - nothing else. We could even give him cost-of-living raises as the years go by and it would still have taken him over 40 years, starting from 1950, to pay that off. If he wasn't the best Blacksmith in the country and didn't make double that salary, we're talking a debt that isn't paid off to this day.

 

Either you're not telling us the whole story, you're not privy to the actual story, or this isn't remotely true.

 

I'll be the first to admit I'm no economist, so if someone wants to fact-check my numbers by all means please do.

 

 

 

Further, what is this nonsensical idea that, if I don't like what's happening in my country, I need to leave?

 

Is that what America is to you? As soon as you don't like it, if you know of a better system somewhere else, you give up your citizenship and move on? I think America is much more than that, personally. I think it's worth fighting for. I think if I don't like something about this country, it's my obligation to roll up my sleeves and work to make it better. Sounds like, according to your story, that's what your grandpa would have done. Maybe they just don't make men like your grandpa anymore in your family.

  • Fire 3
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So when a doctor gets a bonus from a pharmaceutical company for prescribing needless medication, it doesn't concern or bother you?

It's not happening as much as you think. Most physicians who are affiliated with an institution either have limits in what they can "earn" for consulting/speaking or they're not allowed to do anything with industry.

 

You can verify individuals payments here (as well as state info, hospital info)- if you want to see if your physician is working with industry: https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

 

What about doctors that own their own practice? Isn't that quite common? (I honestly don't know.)

 

Who cares if they do?

 

It would affect the statement I quoted, "Most physicians who are affiliated with an institution either have limits in what they can "earn" for consulting/speaking or they're not allowed to do anything with industry."

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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

I'll call 100% bullsh#t on a 1950s-era American Blacksmith making enough money to 1) pay off a $250,000 debt starting in the 1950s and 2) doing it while working as a Blacksmith.

 

First, a Blacksmith is a uniquely unusual trade to be engaged in in the 1950s. But they exist today, so let's say he had a tremendously unique niche job. OK.

 

Today, a Blacksmith will make between $30,000 and $75,000. In 1950s money, that's $2,500-$6,300 per year. Presuming your grandpa was an EXCELLENT Blacksmith, let's make him a top earner at $6,300/year, and heck, because we're generous, let's double his salary.

 

So your grandpa, as a 1950s-era Blacksmith par excellence, made $12,600 per year. He had bills, obviously, like food (29% of his expenditures in the 1950s), housing (27%), apparel (11%), and healthcare (5%). We won't even count his expenditures on kids (presuming only one, your dad), travel (for grandma's treatment) entertainment, or anything else. He lived a Spartan life. At $12,600 per year, with those normal expenditures, he would have had about $3,500 per year to apply to that debt.

 

Even presuming no interest on that debt, it would have taken him 71 years to pay it off, again presuming zero other expenditures and no money spent on children or anything like travel, a new couch, a TV - nothing else. We could even give him cost-of-living raises as the years go by and it would still have taken him over 40 years, starting from 1950, to pay that off. If he wasn't the best Blacksmith in the country and didn't make double that salary, we're talking a debt that isn't paid off to this day.

 

Either you're not telling us the whole story, you're not privy to the actual story, or this isn't remotely true.

 

I'll be the first to admit I'm no economist, so if someone wants to fact-check my numbers by all means please do.

 

 

 

Further, what is this nonsensical idea that, if I don't like what's happening in my country, I need to leave?

 

Is that what America is to you? As soon as you don't like it, if you know of a better system somewhere else, you give up your citizenship and move on? I think America is much more than that, personally. I think it's worth fighting for. I think if I don't like something about this country, it's my obligation to roll up my sleeves and work to make it better. Sounds like, according to your story, that's what your grandpa would have done. Maybe they just don't make men like your grandpa anymore in your family.

 

 

You can call bullsh#t all you want, it won't make you right. He worked his ass off for years to pay off that debt. It took him upwards of 25 years to pay it all off. And get this, blacksmithing is what he was by trade but it wasn't all he did. Good job on your assumptions.

 

And no one said you needed to leave. It's pretty nonsensical for you to come to that conclusion, I simply asked why you haven't because it's what I would have done in your place.

 

I used to have a lot of respect for you and now after your last couple of posts in here I have zero.

 

I'm all for being accountable for your own decisions and I don't need the likes of you to tell me how to make them. When I was younger I made a conscious decision to NOT buy health insurance because I didn't need it. If I had racked up medical bills with no insurance, I would have done just like my grandfather did. Unless of course I had died, that would have made it a bit difficult.

 

*Edit* When it comes to wanting socialized medicine you are in the minority in this country. Colorado's Amendment 69 (also known as ColoradoCare) failed by a margin of nearly 80/20. Even in left-wing Denver it failed by nearly a 2-1 margin.

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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

Right now my wife and I both receive benefits. My wife is in medicine, I'm in education. If for some unforeseen circumstances we lose our insurance and one of us, or our kids, get sick and the only realistic solution is to move to Canada, we'll be on the next plane to Winnipeg. Moving to Canada isn't as straight forward as one would think.

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Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

I'll call 100% bullsh#t on a 1950s-era American Blacksmith making enough money to 1) pay off a $250,000 debt starting in the 1950s and 2) doing it while working as a Blacksmith.

 

First, a Blacksmith is a uniquely unusual trade to be engaged in in the 1950s. But they exist today, so let's say he had a tremendously unique niche job. OK.

 

Today, a Blacksmith will make between $30,000 and $75,000. In 1950s money, that's $2,500-$6,300 per year. Presuming your grandpa was an EXCELLENT Blacksmith, let's make him a top earner at $6,300/year, and heck, because we're generous, let's double his salary.

 

So your grandpa, as a 1950s-era Blacksmith par excellence, made $12,600 per year. He had bills, obviously, like food (29% of his expenditures in the 1950s), housing (27%), apparel (11%), and healthcare (5%). We won't even count his expenditures on kids (presuming only one, your dad), travel (for grandma's treatment) entertainment, or anything else. He lived a Spartan life. At $12,600 per year, with those normal expenditures, he would have had about $3,500 per year to apply to that debt.

 

Even presuming no interest on that debt, it would have taken him 71 years to pay it off, again presuming zero other expenditures and no money spent on children or anything like travel, a new couch, a TV - nothing else. We could even give him cost-of-living raises as the years go by and it would still have taken him over 40 years, starting from 1950, to pay that off. If he wasn't the best Blacksmith in the country and didn't make double that salary, we're talking a debt that isn't paid off to this day.

 

Either you're not telling us the whole story, you're not privy to the actual story, or this isn't remotely true.

 

I'll be the first to admit I'm no economist, so if someone wants to fact-check my numbers by all means please do.

 

 

 

Further, what is this nonsensical idea that, if I don't like what's happening in my country, I need to leave?

 

Is that what America is to you? As soon as you don't like it, if you know of a better system somewhere else, you give up your citizenship and move on? I think America is much more than that, personally. I think it's worth fighting for. I think if I don't like something about this country, it's my obligation to roll up my sleeves and work to make it better. Sounds like, according to your story, that's what your grandpa would have done. Maybe they just don't make men like your grandpa anymore in your family.

 

You can call bullsh#t all you want, it won't make you right. He worked his ass off for years to pay off that debt. It took him upwards of 25 years to pay it all off. And get this, blacksmithing is what he was by trade but it wasn't all he did. Good job on your assumptions.

 

And no one said you needed to leave. It's pretty nonsensical for you to come to that conclusion, I simply asked why you haven't because it's what I would have done in your place.

 

I used to have a lot of respect for you and now after your last couple of posts in here I have zero.

 

I'm all for being accountable for your own decisions and I don't need the likes of you to tell me how to make them. When I was younger I made a conscious decision to NOT buy health insurance because I didn't need it. If I had racked up medical bills with no insurance, I would have done just like my grandfather did. Unless of course I had died, that would have made it a bit difficult.

 

*Edit* When it comes to wanting socialized medicine you are in the minority in this country. Colorado's Amendment 69 (also known as ColoradoCare) failed by a margin of nearly 80/20. Even in left-wing Denver it failed by nearly a 2-1 margin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then you get a job that offers health insurance as a benefit.

 

If the situation changes rapidly enough that I can't get health insurance in time? Then that's my fault and I'm the only one responsible for the debt and the decision that put me in debt.

People get cancer diagnoses out of the clear blue sky. And then what do you do? Just not accept healthcare? Accept it, run debt up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars (two different family members have had cancer costing over two hundred thousand in healthcare), and then either spend the rest of your life in debt? Or you die, and your family is burdened with that debt?

 

What's the solution there? You're OK with going into lifelong debt, not accepting healthcare you can't pay for, or passing that debt along to your kin?

 

Why, when every other first-world nation has figured out how to treat their citizens without them going into debt? Why should America/Americans be uniquely burdened like this?

 

Funny that you mention cancer. My grandma died from cancer when my dad was 11 years old. My grandpa would hear of a rumor of a new cure for cancer so he'd pack up grandma in the car and take off. He racked up a debt of over $250,000 in the late 40's/early 50's. He was a blacksmith and he still managed to repay every penny.

 

Grandpa believed that you do what it takes to pay your debt as long as its honest work. They just don't make men like grandpa anymore.

 

I'll ask that if things in America aren't to your liking, and you already know where things ARE to your liking, why have you not moved? Its a serious question because it's what I would do.

 

I'll call 100% bullsh#t on a 1950s-era American Blacksmith making enough money to 1) pay off a $250,000 debt starting in the 1950s and 2) doing it while working as a Blacksmith.

 

First, a Blacksmith is a uniquely unusual trade to be engaged in in the 1950s. But they exist today, so let's say he had a tremendously unique niche job. OK.

 

Today, a Blacksmith will make between $30,000 and $75,000. In 1950s money, that's $2,500-$6,300 per year. Presuming your grandpa was an EXCELLENT Blacksmith, let's make him a top earner at $6,300/year, and heck, because we're generous, let's double his salary.

 

So your grandpa, as a 1950s-era Blacksmith par excellence, made $12,600 per year. He had bills, obviously, like food (29% of his expenditures in the 1950s), housing (27%), apparel (11%), and healthcare (5%). We won't even count his expenditures on kids (presuming only one, your dad), travel (for grandma's treatment) entertainment, or anything else. He lived a Spartan life. At $12,600 per year, with those normal expenditures, he would have had about $3,500 per year to apply to that debt.

 

Even presuming no interest on that debt, it would have taken him 71 years to pay it off, again presuming zero other expenditures and no money spent on children or anything like travel, a new couch, a TV - nothing else. We could even give him cost-of-living raises as the years go by and it would still have taken him over 40 years, starting from 1950, to pay that off. If he wasn't the best Blacksmith in the country and didn't make double that salary, we're talking a debt that isn't paid off to this day.

 

Either you're not telling us the whole story, you're not privy to the actual story, or this isn't remotely true.

 

I'll be the first to admit I'm no economist, so if someone wants to fact-check my numbers by all means please do.

 

 

 

Further, what is this nonsensical idea that, if I don't like what's happening in my country, I need to leave?

 

Is that what America is to you? As soon as you don't like it, if you know of a better system somewhere else, you give up your citizenship and move on? I think America is much more than that, personally. I think it's worth fighting for. I think if I don't like something about this country, it's my obligation to roll up my sleeves and work to make it better. Sounds like, according to your story, that's what your grandpa would have done. Maybe they just don't make men like your grandpa anymore in your family.

 

You can call bullsh#t all you want, it won't make you right. He worked his ass off for years to pay off that debt. It took him upwards of 25 years to pay it all off. And get this, blacksmithing is what he was by trade but it wasn't all he did. Good job on your assumptions.

 

And no one said you needed to leave. It's pretty nonsensical for you to come to that conclusion, I simply asked why you haven't because it's what I would have done in your place.

 

I used to have a lot of respect for you and now after your last couple of posts in here I have zero.

 

I'm all for being accountable for your own decisions and I don't need the likes of you to tell me how to make them. When I was younger I made a conscious decision to NOT buy health insurance because I didn't need it. If I had racked up medical bills with no insurance, I would have done just like my grandfather did. Unless of course I had died, that would have made it a bit difficult.

 

*Edit* When it comes to wanting socialized medicine you are in the minority in this country. Colorado's Amendment 69 (also known as ColoradoCare) failed by a margin of nearly 80/20. Even in left-wing Denver it failed by nearly a 2-1 margin.

 

Per bolded:

 

Thus the mandate.

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