Dec 7

[GM_Tood]

 

President Franklin D. Roosevelt: Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our secretary of state a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese government also launched as attack against Malaya.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Wake Island.

And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. But always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us. . .

[NUance]

The bombing of Pearl Harbor was a heinous surprise attack that took 2,400 American lives. Like many Americans I remember it each year.

 

I don't mean to disrespect or diminish Pearl Harbor. But lately I've been studying Japan's other WWII endeavors, and how much more death and destruction they caused to other countries. Japan's war in China resulted in 6,000,000 Chinese deaths. Six million! (Maybe more. Some estimates are as high as ten million.) There are some who question, in retrospect, our decision to nuke Japan. If you ask me, we let them off pretty easy considering all the evil they wrought.

[BigRedBuster]

It is very interesting to me the transformation of Japan pre/during WWII and them since WWII.

[NUance]

It is very interesting to me the transformation of Japan pre/during WWII and them since WWII.

 

I wonder what the world would be like if we had treated post WWI Germany like we treated Japan after WWII? It's likely there would have no WWII in Europe. Not sure whether it would have impacted Japan's decision to invade China. Maybe. :

[BigRedBuster]

 

It is very interesting to me the transformation of Japan pre/during WWII and them since WWII.

 

I wonder what the world would be like if we had treated post WWI Germany like we treated Japan after WWII? It's likely there would have no WWII in Europe. Not sure whether it would have impacted Japan's decision to invade China. Maybe. :

 

Japan's invasion of China lasted from 1937 to 1945. Japan didn't sign onto the Tripartite pact until 1940.

 

The pact was what tied Japan and Germany together as allies. Germany and Italy wanted Europe and Japan wanted Asia. The signed a pact to defend each other....which....ultimately led t Japan bombing Pearl Harbor in retaliation for us opposing Germany.

 

I'm not sure our actions after WWI would have affected Japan's desire and actions invading China in 1937. For a long time they had tried invading and ruling over more territory in that region.

 

This is at least what I understand of the situation. However, I have always been fascinated by this era in world history so if I can learn something new...I'm all ears.

[NUance]

Japan's invasion of China lasted from 1937 to 1945. Japan didn't sign onto the Tripartite pact until 1940.

 

The pact was what tied Japan and Germany together as allies. Germany and Italy wanted Europe and Japan wanted Asia. The signed a pact to defend each other....which....ultimately led t Japan bombing Pearl Harbor in retaliation for us opposing Germany.

 

I'm not sure our actions after WWI would have affected Japan's desire and actions invading China in 1937. For a long time they had tried invading and ruling over more territory in that region.

 

This is at least what I understand of the situation. However, I have always been fascinated by this era in world history so if I can learn something new...I'm all ears.

We didn't declare war on either Germany or Japan until after Pearl Harbor. :

[knapplc]

I think maybe what BRB is talking about was the war materiel the US was sending to England and Russia. We were feeding Great Britain for a while there, hampering Germany's efforts to end the war in the west part of Europe.

 

Imagine what the world would look like today if England had fallen. An American invasion fleet coming across the Atlantic would have been a near impossibility. We would, maybe, have had to invade somewhere in Africa and work our way up to Europe through Gibraltar, Italy, or some other European landing site.

[Mavric]

I think maybe what BRB is talking about was the war materiel the US was sending to England and Russia. We were feeding Great Britain for a while there, hampering Germany's efforts to end the war in the west part of Europe.

I'm sure that was probably part of it. But I was under the impression that the main reason was the US was really the only opposition Japan would face in their effort to conquer the western pacific. So their thinking was if they could severely cripple the US fleet, they could take what they wanted basically unopposed and be in total control of the area before the US could recover enough to launch a significant counter-strike.

 

Imagine what the world would look like today if England had fallen. An American invasion fleet coming across the Atlantic would have been a near impossibility. We would, maybe, have had to invade somewhere in Africa and work our way up to Europe through Gibraltar, Italy, or some other European landing site.

That would have been really bad. On any number of levels.

[Mavric]

[Mavric]

There are some who question, in retrospect, our decision to nuke Japan. If you ask me, we let them off pretty easy considering all the evil they wrought.

Was thinking about this same thing this morning. Not that the destruction inflicted wasn't terrible. But to me, it was a necessary evil. Japan wasn't going to give up without being forced to do so in some fashion. An invasion of the home islands would have led to many times more deaths - on both sides. We also could have bombed Tokyo - which had 10 times the population. But it seems that we tried to pick sites that would make enough of an impact to force their surrender but not really bigger than they had to be.

 

Also, I don't recall ever hearing about what was happening between the two bombings. They were three days apart. It seems to me that Japan could have quickly come to the realization that they were beaten after the first one. I would think they could have notified us of their surrender after the first bomb and spared themselves the second one. But that obviously didn't happen. I have no idea if that was actually the case but it would seem plausible.

[NUance]

 

There are some who question, in retrospect, our decision to nuke Japan. If you ask me, we let them off pretty easy considering all the evil they wrought.

Was thinking about this same thing this morning. Not that the destruction inflicted wasn't terrible. But to me, it was a necessary evil. Japan wasn't going to give up without being forced to do so in some fashion. An invasion of the home islands would have led to many times more deaths - on both sides. We also could have bombed Tokyo - which had 10 times the population. But it seems that we tried to pick sites that would make enough of an impact to force their surrender but not really bigger than they had to be.

 

Also, I don't recall ever hearing about what was happening between the two bombings. They were three days apart. It seems to me that Japan could have quickly come to the realization that they were beaten after the first one. I would think they could have notified us of their surrender after the first bomb and spared themselves the second one. But that obviously didn't happen. I have no idea if that was actually the case but it would seem plausible.

 

 

Can you imagine the panic in Japan after the first nuke? And then after the second nuke? I mean, think of the panic in the U.S. after 911. And that was around 3,000 deaths caused by a known technology that could not be replicated. We dropped two bombs on Japan that were thousands of times larger than the next biggest bomb in existence. The panic must have been incredible.

[Mavric]

My sister-in-law lives on Maui so we got to go over there for a week in March. Took a day to fly over and take the tour of Pearl Harbor. Definitely worth the trip. Spent the entire day there and could have stayed longer. Great visitor's center with displays and a historical video to watch. Touring the Arizona Memorial was something that can't be forgotten. Got to tour the Missouri. And they have recently (last couple years) opened a Pacific Aviation Museum that has all kinds of aircraft (not just WWII-vintage) and an audio tour that gives a nice background on everything. Was a little worried that my kids (12, 9, 7) would be burned out after all that but they even loved getting to listen to the info at the Aviation Museum.

 

Definitely worth checking out if you ever have the chance.

[Mavric]

 

 

There are some who question, in retrospect, our decision to nuke Japan. If you ask me, we let them off pretty easy considering all the evil they wrought.

Was thinking about this same thing this morning. Not that the destruction inflicted wasn't terrible. But to me, it was a necessary evil. Japan wasn't going to give up without being forced to do so in some fashion. An invasion of the home islands would have led to many times more deaths - on both sides. We also could have bombed Tokyo - which had 10 times the population. But it seems that we tried to pick sites that would make enough of an impact to force their surrender but not really bigger than they had to be.

 

Also, I don't recall ever hearing about what was happening between the two bombings. They were three days apart. It seems to me that Japan could have quickly come to the realization that they were beaten after the first one. I would think they could have notified us of their surrender after the first bomb and spared themselves the second one. But that obviously didn't happen. I have no idea if that was actually the case but it would seem plausible.

 

 

Can you imagine the panic in Japan after the first nuke? And then after the second nuke? I mean, think of the panic in the U.S. after 911. And that was around 3,000 deaths caused by a known technology that could not be replicated. We dropped two bombs on Japan that were thousands of times larger than the next biggest bomb in existence. The panic must have been incredible.

 

Yeah, I'm sure the panic by the citizens was beyond comprehension.

 

What's crazy to think about is the arrogance of the emperor/military leaders who were already losing the war badly but still had to encounter something like that to get them to concede.

[knapplc]

We had to drop The Bomb because they were not going to surrender. Every man, woman and child would have fought us.

 

Interesting fact - we are still, in 2016, awarding Purple Hearts that were manufactured prior to the end of World War II. They made hundreds of thousands of them in anticipation of the bloodbath that invading mainland Japan would incur.

 

Dropping The Bomb on Hiroshima was the most humane way of ending that war. We dropped another on Nagasaki because in the immediate aftermath of the first strike, Japanese leadership still wouldn't surrender. We needed their agreement to unconditionally surrender or we'd have to invade.

 

 

Let's also consider, as we discuss our justifiable shock & horror over the use of these two weapons, the atrocities wrought by the Japanese Army in the war. Their acts of barbarism in China alone justified that punishment. The Rape of Nanking alone was amazingly horrific.

[BigRedBuster]

 

Japan's invasion of China lasted from 1937 to 1945. Japan didn't sign onto the Tripartite pact until 1940.

 

The pact was what tied Japan and Germany together as allies. Germany and Italy wanted Europe and Japan wanted Asia. The signed a pact to defend each other....which....ultimately led t Japan bombing Pearl Harbor in retaliation for us opposing Germany.

 

I'm not sure our actions after WWI would have affected Japan's desire and actions invading China in 1937. For a long time they had tried invading and ruling over more territory in that region.

 

This is at least what I understand of the situation. However, I have always been fascinated by this era in world history so if I can learn something new...I'm all ears.

We didn't declare war on either Germany or Japan until after Pearl Harbor. :

 

You are correct, we hadn't formally declared war on either until after Pearl Harbor. However, we were aiding Britain and other countries who were fighting Germany. So, Germany wanted us drawn into the war in the south pacific in hopes it would draw our attention there. Little did they know that we were able to fight the war on multiple fronts.

I'm sure that was probably part of it. But I was under the impression that the main reason was the US was really the only opposition Japan would face in their effort to conquer the western pacific. So their thinking was if they could severely cripple the US fleet, they could take what they wanted basically unopposed and be in total control of the area before the US could recover enough to launch a significant counter-strike.

 

That is the very short version of why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. They were egged on by Germany however, because of what I said earlier in this post.