The Republican Utopia

[commando]

11 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

I think asking whether General Lee is a hero or villain is overly simplistic. But if forced to choose, I would say he was more of a hero than a villain.

you think a man who led an insurrection against the united states is more hero than villain.  a war that cost more US lives than any other war the US has ever fought.    no matter his reasoning he is guilty  of the deaths of thousands of americans.   you can call him a hero for doing that  if you wish...but pardon me if i disagree with you on that point.

[commando]

so that is what 5th dimensional chess looks like

 

[Landlord]

On 8/18/2018 at 11:28 AM, commando said:

you think a man who led an insurrection against the united states is more hero than villain.  a war that cost more US lives than any other war the US has ever fought.    no matter his reasoning he is guilty  of the deaths of thousands of americans.   you can call him a hero for doing that  if you wish...but pardon me if i disagree with you on that point.

 

 

Here's some assorted quotes from his wikipedia page:

 

"When Virginia declared its secession from the Union in April 1861, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command."

 

"Lee rejected the proposal of a sustained insurgency against the Union and called for reconciliation between the two sides."

 

"In 1865, after the war, Lee was paroled and signed an oath of allegiance, asking to have his citizenship of the United States restored."

 

"in that position, he supported reconciliation between North and South.[9] Lee accepted "the extinction of slavery" provided for by the Thirteenth Amendment, but publicly opposed racial equality and granting African Americans the right to vote and other political rights."

 

"Lee opposed the construction of public memorials to Confederate rebellion on the grounds that they would prevent the healing of wounds inflicted during the war.[9] Nevertheless, after his death, Lee became an icon used by promoters of "Lost Cause" mythology, who sought to romanticize the Confederate cause and strengthen white supremacy in the South."

 

"Lee's objection to secession was ultimately outweighed by a sense of personal honor, reservations about the legitimacy of a strife-ridden "Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets", and duty to defend his native Virginia if attacked.[108] He was asked while leaving Texas by a lieutenant if he intended to fight for the Confederacy or the Union, to which Lee replied, "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty"."

 

"Lee resisted calls by some officers to reject surrender and allow small units to melt away into the mountains, setting up a lengthy guerrilla war. He insisted the war was over and energetically campaigned for inter-sectional reconciliation. "So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South.""

 

 

 

Seems like a quite morally ambiguous person who can't simply be dismissed so easily as all hero or all villain. 

[Ric Flair]

34 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Here's some assorted quotes from his wikipedia page:

 

"When Virginia declared its secession from the Union in April 1861, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command."

 

"Lee rejected the proposal of a sustained insurgency against the Union and called for reconciliation between the two sides."

 

"In 1865, after the war, Lee was paroled and signed an oath of allegiance, asking to have his citizenship of the United States restored."

 

"in that position, he supported reconciliation between North and South.[9] Lee accepted "the extinction of slavery" provided for by the Thirteenth Amendment, but publicly opposed racial equality and granting African Americans the right to vote and other political rights."

 

"Lee opposed the construction of public memorials to Confederate rebellion on the grounds that they would prevent the healing of wounds inflicted during the war.[9] Nevertheless, after his death, Lee became an icon used by promoters of "Lost Cause" mythology, who sought to romanticize the Confederate cause and strengthen white supremacy in the South."

 

"Lee's objection to secession was ultimately outweighed by a sense of personal honor, reservations about the legitimacy of a strife-ridden "Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets", and duty to defend his native Virginia if attacked.[108] He was asked while leaving Texas by a lieutenant if he intended to fight for the Confederacy or the Union, to which Lee replied, "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty"."

 

"Lee resisted calls by some officers to reject surrender and allow small units to melt away into the mountains, setting up a lengthy guerrilla war. He insisted the war was over and energetically campaigned for inter-sectional reconciliation. "So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South.""

 

 

 

Seems like a quite morally ambiguous person who can't simply be dismissed so easily as all hero or all villain. 

 

Absolutely correct. Lee was no fan of slavery. He was an American patriot who had fought bravely for his country. He was put to an impossible choice when his country and his home state declared war on one another. It was a very different world in 1861, where the federal government was still a relatively weak collection of states and a person’s allegiance to his state was generally stronger than to his nation.

 

To simply call Lee a traitor and a villain is simple-minded nonsense. Disagree with his choices if you wish, but never deny how impossible of a position he was in.

 

History is complex. People are complex. We think of them as two dimensional cartoons, when they were living, breathing, three dimensional people. They faced choices, made mistakes, were heroic, fell short, and screwed things up. It’s very easy to go back and judge them decades or centuries later by our standards and conclude they fell short. It’s also simppe-minded and ridiculous.

[LumberJackSker]

The same people who think lee was an american hero also think obama disgraced his office by wearing a tan suit and that its ok to work with an enemy nation to undermine our democracy.

[mrandyk]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Absolutely correct. Lee was no fan of slavery. He was an American patriot who had fought bravely for his country. He was put to an impossible choice when his country and his home state declared war on one another. It was a very different world in 1861, where the federal government was still a relatively weak collection of states and a person’s allegiance to his state was generally stronger than to his nation.

 

To simply call Lee a traitor and a villain is simple-minded nonsense. Disagree with his choices if you wish, but never deny how impossible of a position he was in.

 

History is complex. People are complex. We think of them as two dimensional cartoons, when they were living, breathing, three dimensional people. They faced choices, made mistakes, were heroic, fell short, and screwed things up. It’s very easy to go back and judge them decades or centuries later by our standards and conclude they fell short. It’s also simppe-minded and ridiculous.

The mental gymnastics required to come to that conclusion...

 

A patriot by its definition: "A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors". He may have fought bravely, but not for our country. That's pretty damn clear. Turning against the people of his home state would have been painful, but it would have been the right decision. History has not been kind to him for very good reasons.

[commando]

the leader of space force?

 

 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, mrandyk said:

The mental gymnastics required to come to that conclusion...

 

A patriot by its definition: "A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors". He may have fought bravely, but not for our country. That's pretty damn clear. Turning against the people of his home state would have been painful, but it would have been the right decision. History has not been kind to him for very good reasons.

 

Lee was a decorated war veteran who had fought for the U.S. military for some time prior to the Civil War. Seriously...type his name into the Google machine and read a bit before posting. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

 

 

[Landlord]

5 hours ago, mrandyk said:

The mental gymnastics required to come to that conclusion...

 

A patriot by its definition: "A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors". He may have fought bravely, but not for our country. That's pretty damn clear. Turning against the people of his home state would have been painful, but it would have been the right decision. History has not been kind to him for very good reasons.

 

 

Lee fought in the Mexican American war, and was a colonel and then Major General in the United States army during the beginning of the Civil War. 

[commando]

9 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Lee was a decorated war veteran who had fought for the U.S. military for some time prior to the Civil War. Seriously...type his name into the Google machine and read a bit before posting. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

 

 

Timothy McVeigh was a decorated war veteran who fought in the gulf war where he won many medals before he drove that truck load of explosives into Oklahoma City.  Is he also a hero?

[ZRod]

33 minutes ago, commando said:

Timothy McVeigh was a decorated war veteran who fought in the gulf war where he won many medals before he drove that truck load of explosives into Oklahoma City.  Is he also a hero?

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter...

 

I don't think it's a difficult concept to grasp that the story of Lee isn't black and white. However, I also don't think he should be revered as some kind of hero. He did do an honorable thing by trying to mend the divide between a fractured nation.

[BigRedBuster]

16 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Here's some assorted quotes from his wikipedia page:

 

"When Virginia declared its secession from the Union in April 1861, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command."

 

"Lee rejected the proposal of a sustained insurgency against the Union and called for reconciliation between the two sides."

 

"In 1865, after the war, Lee was paroled and signed an oath of allegiance, asking to have his citizenship of the United States restored."

 

"in that position, he supported reconciliation between North and South.[9] Lee accepted "the extinction of slavery" provided for by the Thirteenth Amendment, but publicly opposed racial equality and granting African Americans the right to vote and other political rights."

 

"Lee opposed the construction of public memorials to Confederate rebellion on the grounds that they would prevent the healing of wounds inflicted during the war.[9] Nevertheless, after his death, Lee became an icon used by promoters of "Lost Cause" mythology, who sought to romanticize the Confederate cause and strengthen white supremacy in the South."

 

"Lee's objection to secession was ultimately outweighed by a sense of personal honor, reservations about the legitimacy of a strife-ridden "Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets", and duty to defend his native Virginia if attacked.[108] He was asked while leaving Texas by a lieutenant if he intended to fight for the Confederacy or the Union, to which Lee replied, "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty"."

 

"Lee resisted calls by some officers to reject surrender and allow small units to melt away into the mountains, setting up a lengthy guerrilla war. He insisted the war was over and energetically campaigned for inter-sectional reconciliation. "So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South.""

 

 

 

Seems like a quite morally ambiguous person who can't simply be dismissed so easily as all hero or all villain. 

 

 

The one thing that Ric Flair had right, is that the question is way too simplistic.  Lee is a very complicated figure in American history.

 

That said, he fought a war to try to help slavery survive in the US which cost more American lives than any other war the US has fought.  That might not have been his main motivation.  But, he still fought for that side of the war.  

 

A hero would have stood up to the southern leadership and say, "this is wrong".  To come after the war and ask for his citizenship back, doesn't make him a hero.

 

And, on top of that, people like the KKK and Neo-Nazis hold him in very high regard and almost worship the guy.  His actions during the war with who he fought for gives these groups still to this day, support and power.

[mrandyk]

14 hours ago, ZRod said:

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter...

 

I don't think it's a difficult concept to grasp that the story of Lee isn't black and white. However, I also don't think he should be revered as some kind of hero. He did do an honorable thing by trying to mend the divide between a fractured nation.

But he helped to drive that divide first. I don't think helping clean up the mess exonerates him from his part in making said mess.

[ZRod]

4 minutes ago, mrandyk said:

But he helped to drive that divide first. I don't think helping clean up the mess exonerates him from his part in making said mess.

No, but there is something honorable in realizing the error of your ways and doing something to rectify it.

[mrandyk]

7 minutes ago, ZRod said:

No, but there is something honorable in realizing the error of your ways and doing something to rectify it.

I suppose you are correct. Better than dragging his feet or leading a post-war resistance.

 

Certainly not a black and white story. I'm guessing he never completely agreed with the Confederate efforts. Still, when tasked with fighting your home state and doing the right thing, I should hope everyone would do the right thing.