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knapplc

The Republican Utopia

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knapplc    19,300

 

 

I bet there is some, such as your self, that feel the exact same way a lot us did 2008. Being told that the president is going too "fundamentally change the country" was unsettling at best. I know its hearsay now but it wasn't as bad as I had imagined.

And I'm sure a LOT of people voted for Trump as the opposite of Obama. But the problem with this is, Obama never ran on a platform of fundamentally changing America. His 2008 platform was:

 

 

And I posted his platform. So you're right he used those words, and to you that means he said he was going to do things similar to what Trump has done in just his first few days:

 

Registering immigrants

Build a wall and make Mexico pay for it

Ban Muslims from entering America

Put a gag order in effect on America's government departments

Enable climate change deniers

Threaten "send in the Feds" on cities he disagrees with

 

These are not remotely the same things. One (Obama) was accused of being a dictator. The other (Trump) is actually in fact behaving like a dictator.

 

 

 

 

EDIT - just want to point out that, while it appears we may disagree politically, it is a pleasure to discuss this with someone who brings salient, supported facts to the discussion. Keep this up!

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zoogs    6,367

I had my problems with Bush as well. The Patriot Act and TARP being the biggest.

Right there with you, brother. The strange thing is how on board I was with it all at the time.

 

Patriotism is one of those words that's so powerful, and so dangerous when co-opted. To hold patriotism and "total allegiance" to be our national bedrock...it's all nothing too new, I suppose, but a bit like a horror movie.

 

And I think it does inspire feelings of revulsion and horror in a lot of Americans. Even those of us who would disagree on many other policy points. It's just good to find common ground. (Echo knapp's edit above wholeheartedly ;))

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Comfortably Numb    5,061

Can somebody who has been throwing around the blame and own your vote admonishments explain exactly how that works now? 4 and 8 years ago all I heard was he is everyone's President. This country elected him via our process so everyone has to accept it. That seems to be a little different now. Also, exactly how does that work in a state like Colorado, where Trump received no electoral votes (Hillary won) but there were obviously many people who voted for Trump (I didn't btw). So, is it only in places where Trump received electoral votes that Trump voters are now the only liable voters? Or, is it all Trump voters? Or are people going to back the f#ck up off of this ridiculous blame game?

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HuskermanMike    330

"Blame" is a harsh word. What are we going to do, haul BRI up in front of a tribunal and shine spotlights in his face?

 

The biggest thing I want those who voted for Trump to do is... not do it again. That's the end of the recrimination. We're not naming names, we're not blaming you. Just don't vote for that kind of candidate ever again. It looks like, from the last couple of days, BRI has swung around. I'm super happy with that.

 

I don't super appreciate being called out like that, especially when I wasn't part of that conversation, but what I've written above is the extent of that.

What if some feel he is doing a good job? Are they allowed to be mocked and spit at and tortured for supporting a candidate? I mean it seems like I will be shut down and called names for supporting a candidate. If he makes a mistake, so be it, are we not all human(Now if its military mistake that is a different story). My point is, if he runs again and wins people will be mad, if he says I am done after four years people will get mad and bash him regardless. Anyone ever thought about his feelings because he does have them and I feel he has been the most insulted president to run since...........Abe Lincoln. So why don't we all just get along, oh wait that won't happen because it is peoples mission to see a president fail then have him succeed. Did I support Obama? No, did I try to hope he would fail, no way I respected the president and allowed him his space before bashing him.

 

In the military guess what happens when you see a pic of the president, do you see graffiti on a pic of him? Nope, because they have a respect for the commander in chief and he is their boss. I challenge all to have a certain respect with our president no matter what your views are? Do you have to agree with him, no, do you have to like him, no. I feel as though we need to dig deep inside and respect the man, but you don't have to agree or disagree with him. If you want to call him out on an issue go ahead, by all means this is America but I feel people are panicking and using biases instead of looking forward to a great country.

End rant.

Super busy tonight so might not get responses back for a while.

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NM11046    2,042

I only blame the people who are still defending him today. I'm figuring everybody else has figured it out and we're all on the same team now. Resist.

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What did you imagine, out of curiosity, and why?

I figured the Bill of rights to be decimated i.e. speech, guns, due process etc., government control over personal property and the like. The rhetoric the dems were throwing with the help of main stream media and hollywood. It had seemed as if Obama was going to have carte blanche with his agenda, and the "right" could pound sand

 

 

I recall the rhetoric over Obama/Dems & 2nd Amendment issues. Outside of massively unfounded propaganda, I do not recall anything Obama actually said in his campaign to justify his wanting to dismantle any of the other Amendments. What specifically made you believe the bolded?

 

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press

Amendment 2 - The Right to Bear Arms

Amendment 3 - The Housing of Soldiers

Amendment 4 - Protection from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures

Amendment 5 - Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property

Amendment 6 - Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases

Amendment 7 - Rights in Civil Cases

Amendment 8 - Excessive Bail, Fines, and Punishments Forbidden

Amendment 9 - Other Rights Kept by the People

Amendment 10 - Undelegated Powers Kept by the States and the People

 

 

This article sums it up fairly good

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-obama-legacy-an-assault-on-the-bill-of-rights/article/2601342

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I bet there is some, such as your self, that feel the exact same way a lot us did 2008. Being told that the president is going too "fundamentally change the country" was unsettling at best. I know its hearsay now but it wasn't as bad as I had imagined.

And I'm sure a LOT of people voted for Trump as the opposite of Obama. But the problem with this is, Obama never ran on a platform of fundamentally changing America. His 2008 platform was:

 

 

And I posted his platform. So you're right he used those words, and to you that means he said he was going to do things similar to what Trump has done in just his first few days:

 

Registering immigrants

Build a wall and make Mexico pay for it

Ban Muslims from entering America

Put a gag order in effect on America's government departments

Enable climate change deniers

Threaten "send in the Feds" on cities he disagrees with

 

These are not remotely the same things. One (Obama) was accused of being a dictator. The other (Trump) is actually in fact behaving like a dictator.

 

 

 

 

EDIT - just want to point out that, while it appears we may disagree politically, it is a pleasure to discuss this with someone who brings salient, supported facts to the discussion. Keep this up!

 

Ditto Knapp

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I had my problems with Bush as well. The Patriot Act and TARP being the biggest.

Right there with you, brother. The strange thing is how on board I was with it all at the time.

 

Patriotism is one of those words that's so powerful, and so dangerous when co-opted. To hold patriotism and "total allegiance" to be our national bedrock...it's all nothing too new, I suppose, but a bit like a horror movie.

 

And I think it does inspire feelings of revulsion and horror in a lot of Americans. Even those of us who would disagree on many other policy points. It's just good to find common ground. (Echo knapp's edit above wholeheartedly ;))

 

“Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”

Mark Twain

 

and you as well Zoog

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knapplc    19,300

 

"Blame" is a harsh word. What are we going to do, haul BRI up in front of a tribunal and shine spotlights in his face?

 

The biggest thing I want those who voted for Trump to do is... not do it again. That's the end of the recrimination. We're not naming names, we're not blaming you. Just don't vote for that kind of candidate ever again. It looks like, from the last couple of days, BRI has swung around. I'm super happy with that.

 

I don't super appreciate being called out like that, especially when I wasn't part of that conversation, but what I've written above is the extent of that.

What if some feel he is doing a good job? Are they allowed to be mocked and spit at and tortured for supporting a candidate? I mean it seems like I will be shut down and called names for supporting a candidate. If he makes a mistake, so be it, are we not all human(Now if its military mistake that is a different story). My point is, if he runs again and wins people will be mad, if he says I am done after four years people will get mad and bash him regardless. Anyone ever thought about his feelings because he does have them and I feel he has been the most insulted president to run since...........Abe Lincoln. So why don't we all just get along, oh wait that won't happen because it is peoples mission to see a president fail then have him succeed. Did I support Obama? No, did I try to hope he would fail, no way I respected the president and allowed him his space before bashing him.

 

In the military guess what happens when you see a pic of the president, do you see graffiti on a pic of him? Nope, because they have a respect for the commander in chief and he is their boss. I challenge all to have a certain respect with our president no matter what your views are? Do you have to agree with him, no, do you have to like him, no. I feel as though we need to dig deep inside and respect the man, but you don't have to agree or disagree with him. If you want to call him out on an issue go ahead, by all means this is America but I feel people are panicking and using biases instead of looking forward to a great country.

End rant.

Super busy tonight so might not get responses back for a while.

 

 

 

 

Serious question. The things Trump is doing were all on his platform. He discussed them many times, in the debates, in his stump speeches, in interviews, everywhere. We knew before the election that this is what he intended to do.

 

Who, then, should bear responsibility for Trump when he does the things he told you he was going to do? And if it isn't the people who voted for him, WHY NOT!?!?!????

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ColoNoCoHusker    396

 

 

 

What did you imagine, out of curiosity, and why?

I figured the Bill of rights to be decimated i.e. speech, guns, due process etc., government control over personal property and the like. The rhetoric the dems were throwing with the help of main stream media and hollywood. It had seemed as if Obama was going to have carte blanche with his agenda, and the "right" could pound sand

 

 

I recall the rhetoric over Obama/Dems & 2nd Amendment issues. Outside of massively unfounded propaganda, I do not recall anything Obama actually said in his campaign to justify his wanting to dismantle any of the other Amendments. What specifically made you believe the bolded?

 

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press

Amendment 2 - The Right to Bear Arms

Amendment 3 - The Housing of Soldiers

Amendment 4 - Protection from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures

Amendment 5 - Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property

Amendment 6 - Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases

Amendment 7 - Rights in Civil Cases

Amendment 8 - Excessive Bail, Fines, and Punishments Forbidden

Amendment 9 - Other Rights Kept by the People

Amendment 10 - Undelegated Powers Kept by the States and the People

 

 

This article sums it up fairly good

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-obama-legacy-an-assault-on-the-bill-of-rights/article/2601342

 

 

That was an article written in 2016 and takes a lot of liberties besides being way after either of Obama's elections. To be more explicit in my original question: During the 2008 and/or 2012 Presidential election cycles, what specifically did Obama say/do that made you believe he would be dismantling the Bill of Rights as you believed? I am trying to understand at the time cast your vote; anecdotal answer is fine...

 

I am not trying to pick on you and you are welcome to ignore this. I am interested in your response if you are willing to continue...

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GM_Tood    1,409

I only blame the people who are still defending him today. I'm figuring everybody else has figured it out and we're all on the same team now. Resist.

The issue I have with those of you calling out/blaming Trump voters is that you no longer accept that there is even another opinion other than the one you bought and sold to one another. Though, you don't have to, there are a thousand facts, blogs, and opinion tweets/FBs easily accessible that align with your own and the ones that do not must be evil. It is a cult of personality with a doctrine as dangerously unstable and hypocritical as the worst religious movements and all done in the guise of making the world a better for place for those that you have deemed worthy.
You have become the monster you fought to defeat and are becoming the fascist oppressors and are wholly incapable of seeing it.

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Moiraine    5,954

 

 

I only blame the people who are still defending him today. I'm figuring everybody else has figured it out and we're all on the same team now. Resist.

The issue I have with those of you calling out/blaming Trump voters is that you no longer accept that there is even another opinion other than the one you bought and sold to one another. Though, you don't have to, there are a thousand facts, blogs, and opinion tweets/FBs easily accessible that align with your own and the ones that do not must be evil. It is a cult of personality with a doctrine as dangerously unstable and hypocritical as the worst religious movements and all done in the guise of making the world a better for place for those that you have deemed worthy.

 

You have become the monster you fought to defeat and are becoming the fascist oppressors and are wholly incapable of seeing it.

Facts that don't align with my opinion change my opinion. Because they're facts.

 

The rest of what you said is also pure fantasy. You clearly don't spend a lot of time conversing with people who aren't Republicans, since you've painted such a wholly inaccurate picture of them.

 

For most issues that Democrats and non-Republicans care about, they want people to not be oppressed. What Republicans call religious freedom is really the right to tell gay people they're not allowed in certain stores or able to get married. This idea you have that non-Trump Republicans are oppressors comes from the same part of the brain as that idea.

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NM11046    2,042

 

I only blame the people who are still defending him today. I'm figuring everybody else has figured it out and we're all on the same team now. Resist.

The issue I have with those of you calling out/blaming Trump voters is that you no longer accept that there is even another opinion other than the one you bought and sold to one another. Though, you don't have to, there are a thousand facts, blogs, and opinion tweets/FBs easily accessible that align with your own and the ones that do not must be evil. It is a cult of personality with a doctrine as dangerously unstable and hypocritical as the worst religious movements and all done in the guise of making the world a better for place for those that you have deemed worthy.
You have become the monster you fought to defeat and are becoming the fascist oppressors and are wholly incapable of seeing it.

 

I totally understand/accept that there are many other opinions. Nobody here on this board influences me, and I'm not ignorant enough to not look at opposing views and try to understand them.

 

I'm not sure where you stand on things politically GM - are you watching the actions taken by leadership and seeing their comments and behavior and not growing concerned? If you aren't why? And if you are, that's all I'm saying. I am having a hard time with anybody (R or D ... Trump/Hillary/Other voter) not seeing some of the moves as aggressive and against our way of life and what we stand for.

 

I can totally admit that I had issue with Trump from the beginning because his core beliefs do not align to mine at all. His politics and behavior on the trail only cemented my feelings, and his actions and the people he has surrounded himself with the last 4 days has confirmed it even more - don't think that makes me a monster or facist oppressor (seems like a dramatic accusation to me).

 

I am alarmed, but I don't think I'm an alarmist (if that makes any sense).

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GM_Tood    1,409

The rest of what you said is also pure fantasy. You clearly don't spend a lot of time conversing with people who aren't Republicans, since you've painted such a wholly inaccurate picture of them.

Paint my picture.

 

I voted for Trump.

 

I am for the Immigration Reform/Wall

I am for Business Tax Reform

I am for imposing taxes on goods from US companies shipping their facilities/workers overseas

I am for repeal/replace of ObamaCare

I am for Infrastructure big spending

I am for strengthening the Military

 

I am not for oppression of US citizens

I am not for censure of press

I am not for kicking out legal immigrants

 

Am I afraid that we are going to become Nazi America? No. Am I afraid that by promoting America First that we will weaken our stature globally? No.

 

What do you see? Someone that should be called out on a message board for hoping that the above things come to fruition? Someone who should cower in fear based on the rabble rabble talk of doom and gloom?

 

Edit: Or do you just see a f'ing moron Trump voter?

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GM_Tood    1,409

 

 

I only blame the people who are still defending him today. I'm figuring everybody else has figured it out and we're all on the same team now. Resist.

The issue I have with those of you calling out/blaming Trump voters is that you no longer accept that there is even another opinion other than the one you bought and sold to one another. Though, you don't have to, there are a thousand facts, blogs, and opinion tweets/FBs easily accessible that align with your own and the ones that do not must be evil. It is a cult of personality with a doctrine as dangerously unstable and hypocritical as the worst religious movements and all done in the guise of making the world a better for place for those that you have deemed worthy.

 

You have become the monster you fought to defeat and are becoming the fascist oppressors and are wholly incapable of seeing it.

 

I totally understand/accept that there are many other opinions. Nobody here on this board influences me, and I'm not ignorant enough to not look at opposing views and try to understand them.

 

I'm not sure where you stand on things politically GM - are you watching the actions taken by leadership and seeing their comments and behavior and not growing concerned? If you aren't why? And if you are, that's all I'm saying. I am having a hard time with anybody (R or D ... Trump/Hillary/Other voter) not seeing some of the moves as aggressive and against our way of life and what we stand for.

 

I can totally admit that I had issue with Trump from the beginning because his core beliefs do not align to mine at all. His politics and behavior on the trail only cemented my feelings, and his actions and the people he has surrounded himself with the last 4 days has confirmed it even more - don't think that makes me a monster or facist oppressor (seems like a dramatic accusation to me).

 

I am alarmed, but I don't think I'm an alarmist (if that makes any sense).

 

If some are alarmed at what they see, then I have no issue with that. I can understand that such strong beliefs exist against Trump. But there are strong beliefs for Mr. Trump and his agenda to MAGA. My deal is that I find it unfortunate that every person on this board that voted for Trump is being blamed for x y and z and need to "own up to your vote". Voters being narrowed into a certain "group"...labeled...etc...hrm

 

If I see anything that would cause me to totally switch my stance on owning my vote, I will let you know.

 

I am registered R and voted for Trump...and voted twice for Obama btw.

 

Edit: I am keeping the Santa hat on my pic until Trump is impeached. ;)

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BIGREDIOWAN    2,128

I obviously can't respond back to everyone here, but I'll try and give a brief example since someone pointed out that he had his platform and so did the GOP and I knew it or should've known it going in.

 

I don't agree with some of that, because I never heard ANYWHERE Trump say, "I plan on violating federal employee's first amendments rights and don't want the EPA or other entities speaking on matters that matter to the public, in my first days in office."

 

That's pretty short and sweet, but that's one example of some stuff I didn't see coming necessarily. Never imagined it to be honest and it's complete horse$hit that he's pulling that. Maybe I was being short sighted there, but I don't remember seeing anything like that. I also knew he had an icy relationship with the press, but from what I've seen he's not going to let that get better, it's already getting worse and that's B.S. as well. I've also spoken my peace about him and social media, it's not necessary and it needs to stop. It can only go wrong and has been going wrong..........I'm not thrilled with SOME of the stuff I've seen. There are some things I like though if I'm being honest.

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NM11046    2,042

Not everybody is placing blame (for what its worth) but I totally see why you feel that way, in this thread in particular.

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GM_Tood    1,409

I don't agree with some of that, because I never heard ANYWHERE Trump say, "I plan on violating federal employee's first amendments rights and don't want the EPA or other entities speaking on matters that matter to the public, in my first days in office."

I am waiting on the fact check for this. It was reported on CNN tonight that the 'silencing' of Gov't Agencies is Status Quo during a Presidential Transition.

 

http://fortune.com/2017/01/24/trump-gag-order

 

"It's not clear how long these gag orders will remain in place, or whether they are simply designed to freeze activity until President Trump's hand-picked staff can issue new regulations for those agencies for posting on social media and interacting with the public."

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NebraskaHarry    752

 

The rest of what you said is also pure fantasy. You clearly don't spend a lot of time conversing with people who aren't Republicans, since you've painted such a wholly inaccurate picture of them.

Paint my picture.

 

I voted for Trump.

 

I am for the Immigration Reform/Wall

I am for Business Tax Reform

I am for imposing taxes on goods from US companies shipping their facilities/workers overseas

I am for repeal/replace of ObamaCare

I am for Infrastructure big spending

I am for strengthening the Military

 

I am not for oppression of US citizens

I am not for censure of press

I am not for kicking out legal immigrants

 

Am I afraid that we are going to become Nazi America? No. Am I afraid that by promoting America First that we will weaken our stature globally? No.

 

What do you see? Someone that should be called out on a message board for hoping that the above things come to fruition? Someone who should cower in fear based on the rabble rabble talk of doom and gloom?

 

Edit: Or do you just see a f'ing moron Trump voter?

 

You want to build a 10+ billion dollar wall? Mexico isn't paying for it, so you don't mind taxes raised to support it?

You don't think that's going to raise the price the consumer pays for those imported goods? You wouldn't mind paying more for clothing, cars, etc.?

The question is whether they'll replace Obamacare with something that will actually lower health care costs and doesn't leave those depending on it s*** out of luck.

The military doesn't get enough funding? Are you okay with seeing funding for science get stripped away from those areas so it can go to a wall and the military?

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ColoNoCoHusker    396

I obviously can't respond back to everyone here, but I'll try and give a brief example since someone pointed out that he had his platform and so did the GOP and I knew it or should've known it going in.

 

I don't agree with some of that, because I never heard ANYWHERE Trump say, "I plan on violating federal employee's first amendments rights and don't want the EPA or other entities speaking on matters that matter to the public, in my first days in office."

 

That's pretty short and sweet, but that's one example of some stuff I didn't see coming necessarily. Never imagined it to be honest and it's complete horse$hit that he's pulling that. Maybe I was being short sighted there, but I don't remember seeing anything like that. I also knew he had an icy relationship with the press, but from what I've seen he's not going to let that get better, it's already getting worse and that's B.S. as well. I've also spoken my peace about him and social media, it's not necessary and it needs to stop. It can only go wrong and has been going wrong..........I'm not thrilled with SOME of the stuff I've seen. There are some things I like though if I'm being honest.

 

While you may not have know this exact order & timing of events, I think it is disingenuous to say Trump or the GOP had to be this explicit in order for you to have any idea about this type of behavior. I am making this statement since you strike me as having good critical thinking skills... I am not trying to single you out and pile on, so I won't belabor the point. I appreciate your continued participation in this thread!

 

*** In the interest of full disclosure, I do question how someone who can string three or more words together ends up in Iowa. ;P I say this as someone with family there (broken branch of the family tree as it were...)

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Lil' Red    308

 

The rest of what you said is also pure fantasy. You clearly don't spend a lot of time conversing with people who aren't Republicans, since you've painted such a wholly inaccurate picture of them.

Paint my picture.

 

I voted for Trump.

 

I am for the Immigration Reform/Wall

I am for Business Tax Reform

I am for imposing taxes on goods from US companies shipping their facilities/workers overseas

I am for repeal/replace of ObamaCare

I am for Infrastructure big spending

I am for strengthening the Military

 

I am not for oppression of US citizens

I am not for censure of press

I am not for kicking out legal immigrants

 

Am I afraid that we are going to become Nazi America? No. Am I afraid that by promoting America First that we will weaken our stature globally? No.

 

What do you see? Someone that should be called out on a message board for hoping that the above things come to fruition? Someone who should cower in fear based on the rabble rabble talk of doom and gloom?

 

Edit: Or do you just see a f'ing moron Trump voter?

 

I understand why you and others are attracted to some of his policies. I disagree with most of them but I can at least understand where you are coming from. What I struggle to understand is how his character flaws aren't a deal breaker. For me, it's been evident since the beginning that he is an immature, narcissist that constantly flip-flops on his stances. Add on his bigotry, corruption, and inexperience and I find it difficult to see how someone could believe that he is fit to be the leader of the free world.

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BIGREDIOWAN    2,128

 

I obviously can't respond back to everyone here, but I'll try and give a brief example since someone pointed out that he had his platform and so did the GOP and I knew it or should've known it going in.

 

I don't agree with some of that, because I never heard ANYWHERE Trump say, "I plan on violating federal employee's first amendments rights and don't want the EPA or other entities speaking on matters that matter to the public, in my first days in office."

 

That's pretty short and sweet, but that's one example of some stuff I didn't see coming necessarily. Never imagined it to be honest and it's complete horse$hit that he's pulling that. Maybe I was being short sighted there, but I don't remember seeing anything like that. I also knew he had an icy relationship with the press, but from what I've seen he's not going to let that get better, it's already getting worse and that's B.S. as well. I've also spoken my peace about him and social media, it's not necessary and it needs to stop. It can only go wrong and has been going wrong..........I'm not thrilled with SOME of the stuff I've seen. There are some things I like though if I'm being honest.

 

While you may not have know this exact order & timing of events, I think it is disingenuous to say Trump or the GOP had to be this explicit in order for you to have any idea about this type of behavior. I am making this statement since you strike me as having good critical thinking skills... I am not trying to single you out and pile on, so I won't belabor the point. I appreciate your continued participation in this thread!

 

*** In the interest of full disclosure, I do question how someone who can string three or more words together ends up in Iowa. ;P I say this as someone with family there (broken branch of the family tree as it were...)

 

Lol, it's hard, but somehow I work through the inbred to make it work! :lol:

 

I'll completely admit that I knew that this whole press situation was going to go ugly. I was hoping once he was sworn in as president some things would change there, but it's obvious that it's not going to. I will say that the press deserves some of this to some extent because of how they've "reported" things for years. I'm not talking about "fake news" but more how they stoke the flames when they get the chance when they report things.

 

I still stand by that I never seen him putting a gag on departments like the EPA. Obviously we knew he wasn't going be a proponent for the environment, but I didn't think he'd go that far.

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knapplc    19,300

C'moooooooonnnnnn!!!!

 

GAH. I don't want to condemn you guys. Tood, BRI, I love you guys. You're good people, and I totally buy the explanation that you want fiscal responsibility and no illegals entering the country. Tax reform, honesty in government, end of wastefulness, those are all logical and normal wishes.

 

But you have got to stop defending Trump. Whatever your personal politics choices are, this guy is not aligned to you. You're good, decent, honest folks. You know Trump is not that.

 

Policy and ideological beliefs are one thing. In your heart of hearts, you know Trump isn't going to get you what you want.

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Moiraine    5,954

 

The rest of what you said is also pure fantasy. You clearly don't spend a lot of time conversing with people who aren't Republicans, since you've painted such a wholly inaccurate picture of them.

Paint my picture.

 

I voted for Trump.

 

I am for the Immigration Reform/Wall

I am for Business Tax Reform

I am for imposing taxes on goods from US companies shipping their facilities/workers overseas

I am for repeal/replace of ObamaCare

I am for Infrastructure big spending

I am for strengthening the Military

 

I am not for oppression of US citizens

I am not for censure of press

I am not for kicking out legal immigrants

 

Am I afraid that we are going to become Nazi America? No. Am I afraid that by promoting America First that we will weaken our stature globally? No.

 

What do you see? Someone that should be called out on a message board for hoping that the above things come to fruition? Someone who should cower in fear based on the rabble rabble talk of doom and gloom?

 

Edit: Or do you just see a f'ing moron Trump voter?

Not going to reply to every bullet 'cause I'm on my phone in a bathtub waiting for it to fill up with water. Clearly HB is too much of a priority.

 

Anyhow, I agree with some of them. The very second Wal-mart started having their goods made in factory conditions that are illegal here (and some of those by children) we should have disallowed it or imposed huge tariffs. I will never shop there and try to avoid chain stores whenever I can. Not only did they do all of that but they lied about it all through the 80's and even promoted their "American" made goods.

 

I think you probably don't read a lot of posts here because I don't recall calling Trump supporters morons. I often do differentiate Trump voters and Trump supporters. I understand Trump voters because I'm pro-Life, but I don't agree with them because it's low on my list of priorities.

 

When I think "Trump supporter" it's those people who blindly follow and support every single thing he says and does, no matter how awful. Based pn some of what you posted here you don't seem to be that. Yea, you support him, but you don't fall into the blind follower category. Yes I think those people are morons. For the record I know Democrats who do the same thing for anyone with a (D) by their name. I do strongly disagree with many of your points and strongly disagree with you supporting him despite what I think are unforgivable flaws.

 

 

If you've made it this far... I also want to add this topic is more about oppression by the government and I just don't see how Obama did anything similar to what Trump has done/said and says he intends to do. It's not about what random Trump fans think or in the case of your reply what non Trump fans think.

 

If your reply is in any way about science, if scientists seem snooty/judgemental it's usually because they've been studying their field for years/decades and then an actress who majored in dating an actor in such films as Cable Guy and The Mask comes along and says "Vaccines cause Cancer derp derp" and creates a huge following. Stuff like that is enough for anyone to tear their hair out. And then there's B.O.B. arguing with Neil DeGrasse Tyson that the earth is flat.

 

Now scientists who specialize in one field and think they know everything about everything are another matter.

 

 

After saying I wouldn't reply to every bullet I've still managed to write an essay.

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knapplc    19,300

There is no way you typed all that in a tub filling with water.

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BIGREDIOWAN    2,128

C'moooooooonnnnnn!!!!

 

GAH. I don't want to condemn you guys. Tood, BRI, I love you guys. You're good people, and I totally buy the explanation that you want fiscal responsibility and no illegals entering the country. Tax reform, honesty in government, end of wastefulness, those are all logical and normal wishes.

 

But you have got to stop defending Trump. Whatever your personal politics choices are, this guy is not aligned to you. You're good, decent, honest folks. You know Trump is not that.

 

Policy and ideological beliefs are one thing. In your heart of hearts, you know Trump isn't going to get you what you want.

Not completely he's not, but I suppose I haven't seen a President yet that is going to get me everything that I want. There are a few good things I like, several bad things I don't like, I personally don't think he'll last 4 years. Too much baggage at this point, but like I said before, I couldn't vote for Hillary, but that doesn't mean I feel awesome about voting for Trump either. I certainly don't feel swell about it after the past few days, but I can't take it back now. The problem is, as you've seen, I'm labeled in some way now, I'm not asking for sympathy, just saying is all.

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Moiraine    5,954

There is no way you typed all that in a tub filling with water.

 

Well it all evaporated then I had to start over.

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RedDenver    1,795

You have become the monster you fought to defeat and are becoming the fascist oppressors and are wholly incapable of seeing it.

I could not sum up the Republican politicians any better than that. And the Democratic politician are not far behind on the same road.

 

 

C'moooooooonnnnnn!!!!

 

GAH. I don't want to condemn you guys. Tood, BRI, I love you guys. You're good people, and I totally buy the explanation that you want fiscal responsibility and no illegals entering the country. Tax reform, honesty in government, end of wastefulness, those are all logical and normal wishes.

 

But you have got to stop defending Trump. Whatever your personal politics choices are, this guy is not aligned to you. You're good, decent, honest folks. You know Trump is not that.

 

Policy and ideological beliefs are one thing. In your heart of hearts, you know Trump isn't going to get you what you want.

Not completely he's not, but I suppose I haven't seen a President yet that is going to get me everything that I want. There are a few good things I like, several bad things I don't like, I personally don't think he'll last 4 years. Too much baggage at this point, but like I said before, I couldn't vote for Hillary, but that doesn't mean I feel awesome about voting for Trump either. I certainly don't feel swell about it after the past few days, but I can't take it back now. The problem is, as you've seen, I'm labeled in some way now, I'm not asking for sympathy, just saying is all.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I think voting for him is one thing. Agreeing or disagreeing, supporting or criticizing, defending or opposing him or his policies is something else entirely. You can say you voted for him and wouldn't change that vote and simultaneously oppose his gag order. You don't have to be all in or all out.

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zoogs    6,367

Yeah, I agree. Even if you continue to fundamentally support Trump, you get to choose when and how much to disagree. Delineating those points of agreement and disagreement is good for our conversation here.

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Landlord    7,848

Of course, nobody saw the gag order for the EPA coming. But, what sorts of things did we expect to happen with a vindictive, petty, narcissistic, fragile, insecure baffoon with hostility and animosity towards not just the press, but the first amendment itself, in the oval office?

 

 

Trump's policy will, as long as he's President, be at least a decently accurate reflection of his personality. He's a despicable man, imo. His ability to govern is not separate from that; it stems from it.

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NM11046    2,042

I vascilate a bit on this - I certainly don't think the dreamers should be deported. I also don't believe we should identify entire countries that are not allowed into the US. I think we are so sheltered that many people have turned a blind eye to the horrific conditions that some are trying to escape from.

 

I'm trying to formulate an opinion about the other stuff.

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knapplc    19,300

Quick question, what's everyone's problem with enforcing our immigration laws?

 

You mean our current laws or whatever it is Trump's trying to do? Because those are two very different things.

 

For example - Trump's Muslim ban excludes countries where he has business ties. Do you agree or disagree with this selective enforcement? Do you think this is an ethics violation?

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Comfortably Numb    5,061

 

Quick question, what's everyone's problem with enforcing our immigration laws?

 

You mean our current laws or whatever it is Trump's trying to do? Because those are two very different things.

 

For example - Trump's Muslim ban excludes countries where he has business ties. Do you agree or disagree with this selective enforcement? Do you think this is an ethics violation?

Do you have a source that shows he is excluding countries where he has business ties and including countries where he doesn't? Are we really to believe his immigration and anti terrorism positions are based on his personal business interests? Seems like kind of a stretch.

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knapplc    19,300

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

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Fru    868

I'm with zoogs. If someone is still unabashedly behind or supportive of their choice in the face of all this (dewiz, for example), then that deserves calling out. I haven't seen BRI comment much about his feelings in hindsight now, other than to say he doesn't support ______. The argument is that he voted for that - so lets have an open conversation about whether he agrees or disagrees that he voted for the thing he is saying he doesn't support, and why.

 

For example, I don't support killing innocent civilians in drone strikes. But I supported Obama. Is that a contradiction?

 

Intriguing question, I'll attempt at fielding it.

 

Are drone strikes part of the Democratic Party's agenda as a whole that the entire party is working to support or are drone strikes something that each occupant of the Oval Office for the foreseeable future is going to have to handle, regardless of party affiliation? Is it contradiction or is it an unfortunate by product that the office has right now?

 

I think all of us can discern that there are things our favorite Presidents have done that we don't agree with. if you think critically It's an interesting question, however I think you could ask yourself "Is this something that comes with the territory? Or is it part of the platform and agenda of a political party?"

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BigRedBuster    8,064

 

"Blame" is a harsh word. What are we going to do, haul BRI up in front of a tribunal and shine spotlights in his face?

 

The biggest thing I want those who voted for Trump to do is... not do it again. That's the end of the recrimination. We're not naming names, we're not blaming you. Just don't vote for that kind of candidate ever again. It looks like, from the last couple of days, BRI has swung around. I'm super happy with that.

 

I don't super appreciate being called out like that, especially when I wasn't part of that conversation, but what I've written above is the extent of that.

What if some feel he is doing a good job? Are they allowed to be mocked and spit at and tortured for supporting a candidate? I mean it seems like I will be shut down and called names for supporting a candidate. If he makes a mistake, so be it, are we not all human(Now if its military mistake that is a different story). My point is, if he runs again and wins people will be mad, if he says I am done after four years people will get mad and bash him regardless. Anyone ever thought about his feelings because he does have them and I feel he has been the most insulted president to run since...........Abe Lincoln. So why don't we all just get along, oh wait that won't happen because it is peoples mission to see a president fail then have him succeed. Did I support Obama? No, did I try to hope he would fail, no way I respected the president and allowed him his space before bashing him.

 

In the military guess what happens when you see a pic of the president, do you see graffiti on a pic of him? Nope, because they have a respect for the commander in chief and he is their boss. I challenge all to have a certain respect with our president no matter what your views are? Do you have to agree with him, no, do you have to like him, no. I feel as though we need to dig deep inside and respect the man, but you don't have to agree or disagree with him. If you want to call him out on an issue go ahead, by all means this is America but I feel people are panicking and using biases instead of looking forward to a great country.

End rant.

Super busy tonight so might not get responses back for a while.

 

Mike,

 

I waited till this morning to be at a computer instead of trying to type this out on my phone last night.

 

I don't blame people who voted for Trump in the general election. They were given a choice between very few candidates. Most people are going to look at the top two candidates and try to make a decision between those two. If you take all party politics out, the decision between those two left most people less than enthused.

 

Who I DO blame are the people who voted for Trump early in the Primaries. Those are the people who set this in motion. Trump was doing nothing but standing on stage, yelling at people, calling people names, attacking the press....basically acting like a total ass....and a certain amount of people ate it up. I just flat out don't understand it. Here was a grown man acting like a second grade bully and some people loved it.

 

Once that happened, nobody else really had a choice. Republican voters in Nebraska sure didn't have a choice.

 

I am trying to give the guy a chance. However, every time I do, he does things that reminds me that he is flat out just a total jack ass. He cries and whines because people don't give him respect but then he doesn't respect anyone unless they are falling at his feet worshiping him. He has proven over and over again over the last 18 months that he totally makes crap up and flat out lies about it. And...by all indications, this is what he is going to base policy on. He has proven he has no clue about what he can and can't do in the office and basic constitutional law.

 

A prime example is when he went to the CIA. He had an opportunity to honor the people on that wall and the work the people are doing that were sitting in the room. He started to do that. But, then fairly quickly switched to bragging about himself and picking more at the fight with the media. This leaves me and others with the feeling of....what a total jackass. When I first started seeing complaints about his speech, I thought...Oh, people are exaggerating. So, I went and listened to the entire thing. It was flat out disgusting. Then, you have Spicer come into the press briefing crying that the press wasn't treating them with respect and it's "demoralizing". The press isn't treating Trump any different than he treats other people. Trump disrespects people, calls them names, doesn't follow law or protocol....etc....but, then when people do that back, he cries and whimpers about not being treated fairly. Give me an Fing break.

 

The entire thing is like grade school play ground crap. And....he's the bully. Well, when I was in grade school, my father gave me some great advice. When you think kids aren't liking you or wanting to play with you, then go off and start doing something really fun and they will want to come join you.

 

Trump is like the little kid someone needs to give advice to on how to respect others.

 

And, quite frankly, it pisses me off that the conservative movement I have always thought I was a part of has come to this point. It's flat out embarrassing.

 

 

PS.....about your paragraph on the military having respect for the Commander and Chief because he is their boss. Well.....that may be so. But, he isn't my boss our your boss. Actually, WE are HIS boss. That is a part I don't think he gets. He doesn't own the US and has the ability to do whatever he wants. We as citizens of the US and as HIS BOSS have put forth over the history of the country, certain things the President must abide by to do his job.

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QMany    3,004

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

 

 

I'm sure it is just a coincidence.

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commando    1,626

 

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

 

 

I'm sure it is just a coincidence.

 

can't do anything that would hurt his bottom line.

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Comfortably Numb    5,061

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

Really? This is your proof that his business interests are the deciding factor for which countries he is banning muslim immigration from and which he is allowing it?

 

Looks to me like he has identified the correct countries and the ones with the most potential problems. It is worth noting that 2016 saw a record influx of Muslim immigration to the US and the first year ever that Muslim immigration exceeded Christian immigration. None of those 7 countries would be defined as friendly to the US, whereas I think Saudi Arabia does fit that category. Trump has interests in about 144 companies in 25 different countries. Is it really hard to believe that he does not in what are arguably the 7 unfriendliest countries to the US? I don't see how this proves his business interests have one thing to do with his policy as regards this. I guess we could hold it against him that he doesn't do business in more countries or that he didn't ban more countries but that wouldn't be very consistent with also vilifying him for placing a temporary ban from any country or claiming he is too involved globally. The fact that he does have business interests in a couple countries that possibly could have been worthy of the list is, like I originally said, quite the stretch. Pretty weak sauce IMO.

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commando    1,626

 

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

Really? This is your proof that his business interests are the deciding factor for which countries he is banning muslim immigration from and which he is allowing it?

 

Looks to me like he has identified the correct countries and the ones with the most potential problems. It is worth noting that 2016 saw a record influx of Muslim immigration to the US and the first year ever that Muslim immigration exceeded Christian immigration. None of those 7 countries would be defined as friendly to the US, whereas I think Saudi Arabia does fit that category. Trump has interests in about 144 companies in 25 different countries. Is it really hard to believe that he does not in what are arguably the 7 unfriendliest countries to the US? I don't see how this proves his business interests have one thing to do with his policy as regards this. I guess we could hold it against him that he doesn't do business in more countries or that he didn't ban more countries but that wouldn't be very consistent with also vilifying him for placing a temporary ban from any country or claiming he is too involved globally. The fact that he does have business interests in a couple countries that possibly could have been worthy of the list is, like I originally said, quite the stretch. Pretty weak sauce IMO.

 

15 of the 19 sept. 11 terrorists were saudi

 

edit to add....so was Bin Laden

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Comfortably Numb    5,061

 

 

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

 

 

I'm sure it is just a coincidence.

 

can't do anything that would hurt his bottom line.

 

How much business could any of us conduct in countries that have been banned for travel by the US government?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Trump is the one who banned travel to these countries. That happened long before 6 days ago.

 

Gee, could there possibly be a good reason why travel was banned to those countries and why Trump now wants to also temporarily ban immigration from those same countries?

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knapplc    19,300

 

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

Really? This is your proof that his business interests are the deciding factor for which countries he is banning muslim immigration from and which he is allowing it?

 

Looks to me like he has identified the correct countries and the ones with the most potential problems. It is worth noting that 2016 saw a record influx of Muslim immigration to the US and the first year ever that Muslim immigration exceeded Christian immigration. None of those 7 countries would be defined as friendly to the US, whereas I think Saudi Arabia does fit that category. Trump has interests in about 144 companies in 25 different countries. Is it really hard to believe that he does not in what are arguably the 7 unfriendliest countries to the US? I don't see how this proves his business interests have one thing to do with his policy as regards this. I guess we could hold it against him that he doesn't do business in more countries or that he didn't ban more countries but that wouldn't be very consistent with also vilifying him for placing a temporary ban from any country or claiming he is too involved globally. The fact that he does have business interests in a couple countries that possibly could have been worthy of the list is, like I originally said, quite the stretch. Pretty weak sauce IMO.

 

 

 

So you're giving the whole executive order a pass because you choose not to believe, with supporting evidence like "...2016 saw a record influx of Muslim immigration to the US and the first year ever that Muslim immigration exceeded Christian immigration," that Trump would have ulterior motives with this move.

 

OK.

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Comfortably Numb    5,061

 

 

Yes.

 

LINK

 

To further provide the example, Trump's Executive Order bans Muslims from: Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. Conspicuously missing from that list? Indonesia, where he's currently pursuing business deals. Another Trump business partner not included on the list: Saudi Arabia.

Really? This is your proof that his business interests are the deciding factor for which countries he is banning muslim immigration from and which he is allowing it?

 

Looks to me like he has identified the correct countries and the ones with the most potential problems. It is worth noting that 2016 saw a record influx of Muslim immigration to the US and the first year ever that Muslim immigration exceeded Christian immigration. None of those 7 countries would be defined as friendly to the US, whereas I think Saudi Arabia does fit that category. Trump has interests in about 144 companies in 25 different countries. Is it really hard to believe that he does not in what are arguably the 7 unfriendliest countries to the US? I don't see how this proves his business interests have one thing to do with his policy as regards this. I guess we could hold it against him that he doesn't do business in more countries or that he didn't ban more countries but that wouldn't be very consistent with also vilifying him for placing a temporary ban from any country or claiming he is too involved globally. The fact that he does have business interests in a couple countries that possibly could have been worthy of the list is, like I originally said, quite the stretch. Pretty weak sauce IMO.

 

15 of the 19 sept. 11 terrorists were saudi

 

I know this.

 

We also operate military bases in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi's have historically cooperated with the US government. If I recall, I think we based our Desert Storm operations out of their country and they also provided troops to the coalition. And they happen to be a pretty huge player in our countries Mideast oil interests.

 

Still, none of this proves that his personal business interests have one thing to do with this policy decision. There are plenty of things he can be legitimately criticized for. Why the tendency to criticize absolutely everything, even the things that make pretty damn good sense?

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NM11046    2,042

I'm a little late to the party on this, and don't have all the specifics, but don't some of his interests lie in licensing of his name? So he wouldn't have to be a US person doing business there if a local owned it and payed him royalties and etc. Don't know that it's the case, but I don't buy into the fact that because the US says no travel that he has no interest there.

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