Trump's Government: Fascist, Totalitarian, or Something Else?

[Danny Bateman]

Colo recommended I create a separate thread for this so I thought I would put one together.

Obviously our government is getting taken in a whole new direction right now. A lot of us are uneasy. Some of us probably love it. I"m trying to put a name on the direction we're navigating towards...

 

Knapp leans toward totalitarian:

 

I use that term because the immediate reaction to any comparison with Nazi tactics is "BUT BUT GODWIN'S LAW" and that's the end of it.

 

By not using "Nazi" in your comparison you force those who would defend Trump to think a little more. And in the end, isn't that what we want?

 

Colo leans that way too:

 

 

This probably needs it's own thread. This article does a decent job of characterizing the differences. The key in mind at least right now, is this statement:

 

 

Totalitarianism regimes, on the other hand mainly use government propaganda machinery to publicize the cause of the nation and spread half-truth or false stories about failure of other systems and success of the regime.

http://www.differenc...r-applications/

We could easily become fascist or be moving in that direction. Only time will tell.

EDIT: The difference between the two is similar to Leninist vs Stalinist Communism (or Maoist vs Stalinist). There is a ton more in common but for what differences do exist, they are marked distinctions...

 

That article helps trying to delineate the two. I can see aspects of both. Here's an analysis from a political science who studied lots of fascist governments (Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, and so forth. He found 14 characteristics shared by all of the countries he studied:

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. 1

3. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

Trump's administration checks a lot of boxes there as well. I've seen some critiques of this list on line surmising perhaps it's not the truest definition of fascism. Those are fair, and I would welcome any such critiques from anyone else as well. I think we can all agree that these are not traits we would want in our government.

 

So, what say you? Is this an analogue to any previous style of government, are we seeing a hybrid of 2 or more types, or are we venturing into completely new waters with all of this?

[ColoNoCoHusker]

Glad you included Britt's 14 points. Most of the criticism's of it are valid but I have found it's a great conversation piece when discussing fascism and still has lots of merit. Some consider totalitarianism as a super-set which includes fascism. My view is this is a bit more of a fluid continuum rather than strict hierarchy.

 

One piece of fallout post-WWII was an avoidance of identifying regimes as fascist. There was a lot attached to that term so politically and sociopolitically that tag carried a lot of risk. Since the end of the cold war, the term has come back in vogue. I say this as there are a lot of regime's that have not been identified as fascist that really should have.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is the impact of internet-based technology on these points. When China took over Hong Kong, they went from straight-line Communist over to Democratic Socialist with Capitalist sectors very quickly. Had Hong Kong reverted to China in 1980 instead of 2000, EVERY Hong Kong bank would have moved its holdings out before the takeover. Fiber optic allowed those banks with billions of $ in assets under management to "wait & see". On the other end of the spectrum, eaves-dropping without people having a clue is easier than ever.

 

Lastly, I think the rampant sexism is a function of other factors than fascism. Don't get me wrong, these regimes are sexist but if you look at gender roles in countries like Italy/Germany/Spain/etc before/after/during fascist regimes, the sexism is rampant in the culture independent of fascism.

 

As far as Trump and his administration, so far Trump has demonstrated a complete authoritarian persona. He has also demonstrated command-control authoritarian approach to governing/decisions. I think he is trying to create a cult of personality within government agencies but nobody is getting on that train. I think he would like to be fascist, but he doesn't have the blind allegiance of those in charge of most government agencies (below the appointed positions). He is definitely trying to change that. I think his focus truly is personal financial greed and everything else is secondary. Unfortunately, his ego is his biggest "appetite" so I think he could turn here very quickly.

 

We are in in his first week and are having a discussion about whether or not Trump is fascist, totalitarian, authoritarian or other. I think we will know the answer within 6 months. It's obviously apparent given this is a widespread conversation across the country. Keeping this conversation alive is our best chance at minimizing the self-aggrandizing talking head that is Trump.

[JJ Husker]

Your linked 14 points of fascism description seems to be a little contrived for a purpose. I say that for a couple reasons. 1- click the source link for that description and then scroll down and go to the main site it comes from and then look around a bit at the swill that site is promoting. I'm thinking that is not a very reputable source. 2- go look at some other sources for the definition of fascism, Wikipedia for example. I think you'll find a whole lot of factors of fascism, chiefly economics, that might cause you to not see fascism and Trump synonymously. I could be wrong but it seems like the definition you may be using is somewhat designed to falsely lead you to a preconceived result. Anyway you might rest a bit easier at night if you are really convinced we're headed towards fascism.

[NUance]

Regardless of what Trump *wants* to do, we have a long established system of government in place. He is just a cog in the machine. A cog with really, really bad hair.

 

 

[zoogs]

Good call on the website, JJ. That is...odd.

 

More to say on this later, probably, but for now a WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/10/21/how-fascist-is-donald-trump-theres-actually-a-formula-for-that/?utm_term=.b6b8d889ee8e

 

I think whatever you want to call it, we can break down and outline the various ways Trump's intentions and practices are concerning, and what they call back to.

[knapplc]

"Fascist/Fascism" is just a buzzword in today's society. We throw that term around WAY too loosely and it's basically lost meaning in our current usage.

 

Glenn Beck & guest say Obama & Bush are leading us down a fascist path

 

Stephen Moore calls Obama/the Left fascist

 

Bill O'Reilly calls Atheist David Silverman fascist

 

Martin O'Malley says Trump the fascist has hijacked the GOP

 

The Washington Post calls Trump a fascist

 

The Huffington Post calls Trump a fascist

 

ZeroHedge describes Hillary Clinton as a fascist

 

This book says the American Left is a fascist movement

 

This book says the Christian Right is fascist and at war with America

 

 

 

I could go on and on and on and on. Everyone is fascist these days. Doesn't matter if you're Christian or atheist, Right or Left, Obama, Clinton, Trump, Fox News...

 

Either everyone's a fascist or no one's a fascist. I'm guessing it's the latter, fueled by a lack of understanding of what Fascism actually is.

[JJ Husker]

Agree knapp, it's pretty much a pejorative that gets thrown around way too loosely. Depending who you listen to, our current and last 2 Presidents were the epitome of fascists.

 

Although I will say, it is a little disconcerting that, with such a slight twist of context, Trump can seemingly be made to fit so much of the mold. Luckily, as screwed up and divided as this country is, I dont think we are anywhere near calling a simple bingo, let alone a b*******, in the fascism bingo game.

 

Edit- I guess the prohibition on b L a c k o u t extends to the P&R forum also.

[ColoNoCoHusker]

Regardless of what Trump *wants* to do, we have a long established system of government in place. He is just a cog in the machine. A cog with really, really bad hair.

 

 

 

Then it is good that our long established system of government does not also have a long established history of violating the rights of its citizens or large groups of people. Things like slavery, race-based voter disenfranchisement, wholesale withdrawals of civil liberties, internment camps, persecution based on religious or political affiliation, mass expulsions, genocide of Native peoples, wrongful convictions, discrimination based on some arbitrary classification, etc.

 

[NUance]

 

Regardless of what Trump *wants* to do, we have a long established system of government in place. He is just a cog in the machine. A cog with really, really bad hair.

 

 

 

Then it is good that our long established system of government does not also have a long established history of violating the rights of its citizens or large groups of people. Things like slavery, race-based voter disenfranchisement, wholesale withdrawals of civil liberties, internment camps, persecution based on religious or political affiliation, mass expulsions, genocide of Native peoples, wrongful convictions, discrimination based on some arbitrary classification, etc.

 

 

 

Are there gov't policies and laws in place today that discriminate against minorities? Seems to me that most forms of government sanctioned discrimination are against the law.

 

As for our American history, sure this nation does not have a perfect record of providing equal rights to every group. But when America was founded, our early American ancestors experienced a nearly unprecedented amount of freedom. The common man could own land, come and go as he pleased, and had a voice in governance. It wasn't that way in Europe or any other spot on earth back then.

[commando]

fascists? maybe

totalitarian? maybe

bat sh#t crazy? definately

[ColoNoCoHusker]

 

 

Regardless of what Trump *wants* to do, we have a long established system of government in place. He is just a cog in the machine. A cog with really, really bad hair.

 

 

 

Then it is good that our long established system of government does not also have a long established history of violating the rights of its citizens or large groups of people. Things like slavery, race-based voter disenfranchisement, wholesale withdrawals of civil liberties, internment camps, persecution based on religious or political affiliation, mass expulsions, genocide of Native peoples, wrongful convictions, discrimination based on some arbitrary classification, etc.

 

 

 

Are there gov't policies and laws in place today that discriminate against minorities? Seems to me that most forms of government sanctioned discrimination are against the law.

 

As for our American history, sure this nation does not have a perfect record of providing equal rights to every group. But when America was founded, our early American ancestors experienced a nearly unprecedented amount of freedom. The common man could own land, come and go as he pleased, and had a voice in governance. It wasn't that way in Europe or any other spot on earth back then.

 

 

I don't want to derail the thread but my examples are just looking back at the last ~150 years of US history. Remove slavery and we are talking about the last few decades. Looking at the widespread civil liberty & discrimination of the last 100 years, in most instances there were laws against them but it didn't stop politicians and government agencies at multiple levels from ignoring those laws. And the judiciary in our country has no enforcement powers...

 

All our liberties depend on our citizenry, regardless of political party. All that is needed is for a few hundred politicians to look the other way on any issue for rights to be trampled. That's a very fine line...

[knapplc]

Are there gov't policies and laws in place today that discriminate against minorities? Seems to me that most forms of government sanctioned discrimination are against the law.

Definitely. And the erosion of rights for minorities continues to this day, and will come back in full force if we are not vigilant.

 

Racism & bigotry are not eliminated from this country. We have made tremendous strides against oppression, but those people who want to discriminate will if we don't act against it.

 

It is at the very least extremely disconcerting that Trump has as one of his top advisors Steve Bannon, a man who, if he is not actively racist, is at the very least an enabler of racism.

[ColoNoCoHusker]

Here's a article discussing working-class exploitation of Coal Miners that continues to this day. Take it with a grain of salt but even then it's pretty deplorable:

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/02/24/14289/labor-department-unveils-changes-aid-miners-black-lung-benefits-cases

 

From the same time period (2014), here's an article discussing the Ludlow Massacre:

http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-ludlow-massacre-still-matters

 

We are not as far removed these types of event as it seems sometimes. These usurpations have nothing to do with racism which is more than likely to become a major issue (again) as well...

[zoogs]

Racism & bigotry are not eliminated from this country. We have made tremendous strides against oppression, but those people who want to discriminate will if we don't act against it.

Indeed. It will always be a fight against the forces that want to impose it. To take our hard-fought past gains for granted would be a huge mistake, as it has ever been. When we do not even see the existence of a threat, ceding considerable ground becomes inevitable.

[Danny Bateman]

 

Went over the heads of multiple federal agencies on this one.

 

This news is bigly interesting. By bypassing the OLC it seems the administration would rather interpret the law themselves and see what they can get away with, and it mentions that career officials being up to speed could've avoided some of the confusion we saw in airports.

 

This admin has had a rough first week.