Immigration Ban

[Danny Bateman]

Immigration really is a topic that forces you to be honest with yourself about your beliefs & what you value. It's something I've been thinking about lately, at least since Trump got elected.

 

I think you either believe that the way Trump's immigration policy is being enforced is heartless & counterproductive to our society as a whole or you agree with it & believe in enforcing the laws on the books & deporting any undocumented immigrant found living here. There's a spectrum there but not a ton of wiggle room.

 

Personally I am much more more aligned with the first camp. Our immigration laws are long overdue for an updating for modern society. Both parties have put it off long enough. The Republicans have flat out run the other direction because the hardcores are now the ones controlling messaging to their base.

 

Most importantly, it's always seemed morally bankrupt & flat-out despicable for people to call for the uprooting of members of society & the complete upheaval of their lives because one group had the good fortune of being born to parents who already lived here & the other didn't.

[BigRedBuster]

I’ve read several articles on this tonight. 

 

 

[Moiraine]

7 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I’ve read several articles on this tonight. 

 

 

 

 

 

So we can't even trust them with math or statistics now, which is what I already knew based on several other articles on other topics, like the one someone (maybe you?) posted about the pro gerrymandering guy becoming the deputy head of the Census Bureau. This is something that has to be stopped soon before it's too late. We have to get rid of these people ASAP. I don't think we've ever faced anything like this. They are tearing into every partisan thing they can and making it pro Trump or pro Republican, even if they have to completely make s#!t up and lie to us. It might be slow but it's going to deteriorate and maybe end our democracy. When you convince half the country to hate the media and then you create your own data, you are in control.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Moiraine

[Danny Bateman]

 

[Landlord]

I guess I just never understand the rationale behind wanting to be so strick on deporting non-criminal illegal immigrants. Like, okay yeah they broke a law, but why exactly do you want to kick them out? What ethic or philosophy makes that a good, beneficial thing to do? It seems more like a blind belief that law = justice.

 

At the most fundamental level, 'countries' and national borders are completely made up social constructs. Ruining lives of good people who happened not to take part in that system seems...unnecessary and misguided to me.

[Moiraine]

14 minutes ago, Landlord said:

I guess I just never understand the rationale behind wanting to be so strick on deporting non-criminal illegal immigrants. Like, okay yeah they broke a law, but why exactly do you want to kick them out? What ethic or philosophy makes that a good, beneficial thing to do? It seems more like a blind belief that law = justice.

 

At the most fundamental level, 'countries' and national borders are completely made up social constructs. Ruining lives of good people who happened not to take part in that system seems...unnecessary and misguided to me.

 

 

It's also a waste of $ and I don't believe it gains the U.S. $

[Danny Bateman]

38 minutes ago, Landlord said:

I guess I just never understand the rationale behind wanting to be so strick on deporting non-criminal illegal immigrants. Like, okay yeah they broke a law, but why exactly do you want to kick them out? What ethic or philosophy makes that a good, beneficial thing to do? It seems more like a blind belief that law = justice.

 

At the most fundamental level, 'countries' and national borders are completely made up social constructs. Ruining lives of good people who happened not to take part in that system seems...unnecessary and misguided to me.

 

It's a moral statement for some folks as well as a fiscal issue as Moraine pointed out. I'm better than you because I got my papers and you don't. So it's obviously fine for me to use dehumanizing language like "illegal" or "alien" in order to put you in your place. 

 

(Of course again this is all just the genetic lottery, so anyone deriving any feeling of superiority over another as it relates to their birthright is fairly ridiculous)

 

I'll take a concept you used an advanced it. The enforcement of laws that exist is a social construct as well and changes depending on those in leadership positions. I've never seen anyone ticketed for jaywalking despite doing it lots of times myself. Who exactly are these moral police that get to decide that our immigration laws are sacrosanct all of a sudden and need enforced strongly via deportations? Why is the fact that these people probably omitted minor details from their taxes or speed on the highway any less serious of a crime?

[Moiraine]

Segue... I almost had my life ruined by a jaywalker Sunday night. It was dark, snowing, the streets were wet, and he was wearing a black jacket and black pants walking across the 3rd busiest street in Omaha and I almost killed him through no fault of my own.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Moiraine

[Danny Bateman]

Whoa. Glad nothing came of it. 

 

I'd like to point out that I believe I'm an intelligent jaywalker. I certainly don't do it at night or across busy streets. I'm almost always running across as well.

 

But the general intelligence and judgment of some of the folks you see out walking around in the world is not a rabbit hole I have enough energy or patience to go down right now

[ZRod]

5 hours ago, dudeguyy said:

 

It's a moral statement for some folks as well as a fiscal issue as Moraine pointed out. I'm better than you because I got my papers and you don't. So it's obviously fine for me to use dehumanizing language like "illegal" or "alien" in order to put you in your place. 

 

(Of course again this is all just the genetic lottery, so anyone deriving any feeling of superiority over another as it relates to their birthright is fairly ridiculous)

 

I'll take a concept you used an advanced it. The enforcement of laws that exist is a social construct as well and changes depending on those in leadership positions. I've never seen anyone ticketed for jaywalking despite doing it lots of times myself. Who exactly are these moral police that get to decide that our immigration laws are sacrosanct all of a sudden and need enforced strongly via deportations? Why is the fact that these people probably omitted minor details from their taxes or speed on the highway any less serious of a crime?

It's not that they just got their papers. They had to wait years and pay for their paper work in order to be accepted into the country. It's pretty easy to understand why someone who had to do that would be pissed if you just automatically gave people who skipped the line citizenship. all while they got the experience of living here illegally.

[Danny Bateman]

3 hours ago, ZRod said:

It's not that they just got their papers. They had to wait years and pay for their paper work in order to be accepted into the country. It's pretty easy to understand why someone who had to do that would be pissed if you just automatically gave people who skipped the line citizenship. all while they got the experience of living here illegally.

 

This argument works for other documented immigrants who immigrated here legally, but I was more specifically talking about Joe Blow who was just born here. Is it fair for him to have the same resentment?

 

I was born here & I certainly don't. I understand why legal immigrants do. But if you that our immigration system vis a vis Mexico is badly in need of reform & this administration is carrying out a quite transparently bigoted & xenophobic immigration doctrine, it's hard for me to blame immigrants themselves.

[sho]

15 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

So proud of America right with this.

 

 

 

How do green cards work?  He's married to an American citizen for years, he should able to obtain a green card no problem*.   Why did he not do that?   Seems like an easy fix for him and his family.

 

*  However easy it is to get a green card, I've never had to research that.

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, dudeguyy said:

 

This argument works for other documented immigrants who immigrated here legally, but I was more specifically talking about Joe Blow who was just born here. Is it fair for him to have the same resentment?

 

I was born here & I certainly don't. I understand why legal immigrants do. But if you that our immigration system vis a vis Mexico is badly in need of reform & this administration is carrying out a quite transparently bigoted & xenophobic immigration doctrine, it's hard for me to blame immigrants themselves.

Trump administration asside. 

 

As we all know this is an extremely complicated and sensitive issue in desperate need of rectification. No matter what path is chosen people will be hurt and people will be upset. I don't think it's right to ship people off who were brought here through no choice of their own as a child, and who have no criminal record. Infact, it''s a terrible idea that only builds resentment towards the US and further complicates the issue. 

 

That being said, I can't fault anyone who gets their jimmie's rustled because of illegal immigration, be they immigrant or natural born. We live in a society of rules and norms. Those who violate the code are subject to the disdain of others. That's just the way it works. Just because I'm not a huge soccer fan or Spaniard doesn't mean I can't be upset that Messi didn't pay his taxes in Spain...

Edited January 17, 2018 by ZRod

[ZRod]

19 minutes ago, sho said:

 

How do green cards work?  He's married to an American citizen for years, he should able to obtain a green card no problem*.   Why did he not do that?   Seems like an easy fix for him and his family.

 

*  However easy it is to get a green card, I've never had to research that.

I don't think it's that easy. I work with a lot of immigrants and I would say it's probably 50/50 of them having a green card, or only a visa. These are engineers mind you, so they are working on long term projects. He likely would have had to return to Mexico for a period of time before even being considered for the process. Which exposes his status and may even prevent him from ever being able to legal enter the country.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ZRod

[Danny Bateman]

Fair enough. Who I grew up with probably played a big role in how I view this issue. I lived in a small to medium-sized town in Iowa that had a lot of Hispanics come in for work at the Farmland plant, a good deal of which were probably undocumented.

 

Yet, I went to school with them all the same & as a whole they didn't seem to have a negative effect on our culture. If anything I think they improved it by exposing me to a lot of stuff I otherwise wouldn't have had exposure to. They paid taxes like the rest of us but can't collect all the same benefits as documented citizens.

 

I've just always had a moral issue about being a rah-rah "round 'em up & enforce the rules guy" even though I know what the law is. As a member of not just the U.S. but the world community, it didn't seem right to send them back to the levels of crime & poverty in Mexico if they are productive members of society not bothering anyone here. Luckily Mexico's economy has vastly improved since NAFTA & net immigration has been negative from Mexico for several years. 

 

Btw I think you're right about the green card thing. From everything I've read legally immigrating here (or even getting a green card) can take years & years.