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Sexism - It's a Real Thing


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3 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Where there is imbalance, balance is not the right answer.

I agree with most of the rest of what you posted, but I'd add some nuance to this statement. Where there is imbalance, attaining balance is the right answer, not imbalance another way. (Which is of course, not as simple/elegant as your statement.)

 

And as for "both sides"ing this, what do you propose as a fix/solution/discussion point for how men can learn/change based on this situation?

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25 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Like i said, nothing more to say....jeeze louise

 

Women need to take control of the situation, its not on the men to, ya know, change their behavior. Smh 

 

 

I can't speak for others here, but I think you're misunderstanding what others are saying.  Nobody is saying men shouldn't change their behavior NO ONE AT ALL.  

 

What many of the editorials and comments I'm seeing (not all here) are that women are raised to not make waves, not push back, to let someone down easy and "with a smile".  Part of what needs to happen is that we empower women at a young age to know it's ok to say no, to do so strongly and to not worry about what someone thinks of her afterward.  That they should be comfortable starting and having conversations about expectations and what they want.

 

ALSO - that men are aware of reading ques, of having the conversations etc.  

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1 minute ago, Nebfanatic said:

Ha! Half of those posts are from myself or @zoogs and you convieniently left out much of other posts. But whatever you want to believe. I'm tired of going back and forth about it.

 

 

What I left out doesn't matter when your claim was that all anyone is focusing on is how the woman is to blame or should have acted differently. Obviously, that isn't true. There have been plenty of links and discussions about the nature of consent, how he went too far, how his behavior isn't okay but is normal, how we need to better empower women as a society, how we need to de-normalize his behavior, so on and so forth. 

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Just now, RedDenver said:

I agree with most of the rest of what you posted, but I'd add some nuance to this statement. Where there is imbalance, attaining balance is the right answer, not imbalance another way. (Which is of course, not as simple/elegant as your statement.)

 

And as for "both sides"ing this, what do you propose as a fix/solution/discussion point for how men can learn/change based on this situation?

 

I think so, yes.

 

I don't have a fix and I think the impulse to find one is the wrong answer. In some sense it's pretty simple, right, like making sure you have consent and you didn't coerce it and she's as into it as you are is not hard. I would just say there's a starting point. I hope people get to a place where reactions like mine and Nebfanatic's are not so foreign to them because they see more of this conversation playing out, and it's not just that they are reading the Bari Weiss reactions every time and thinking, well, isn't that interesting.

--

I think what Nebfanatic means by "everyone" is he's trying to characterize the arguments of the people who are pushing back, the ones who are pointing to this story and saying, Ha! #MeToo now discredited. A lot of this does rest on victim-blaming. Look, the arguments are all the same, we see them all the time. There are lots of angles. But what if this ruins courtship. But what if she's lying. But what if she's just after fame. But what if we ruin an innocent guy's career. But why didn't she leave. But what did she expect. 

 

To go back to earlier, again: what is central here, and what's not.

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^Another thread. As far as criminal definitions go, I appreciate that we don't want to make everybody a criminal and we'll slot our definitions of things accordingly. And the motivation here is DEFINITELY not to be able to charge more people with crimes, and punish more people more harshly. From a cultural language POV, I have a really, really difficult time with minimizing what we call a scenario where there's coercion of consent and complete disinterest in the other party's consent while plowing ahead for your own sexual gratification. And -- well, people like Sady just say it better and fuller and more nuanced than I do, so please do click through and read.

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11 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

I think so, yes.

 

I don't have a fix and I think the impulse to find one is the wrong answer. In some sense it's pretty simple, right, like making sure you have consent and you didn't coerce it and she's as into it as you are is not hard. I would just say there's a starting point. I hope people get to a place where reactions like mine and Nebfanatic's are not so foreign to them because they see more of this conversation playing out, and it's not just that they are reading the Bari Weiss reactions every time and thinking, well, isn't that interesting.

--

I think what Nebfanatic means by "everyone" is he's trying to characterize the arguments of the people who are pushing back, the ones who are pointing to this story and saying, Ha! #MeToo now discredited. A lot of this does rest on victim-blaming. Look, the arguments are all the same, we see them all the time. There are lots of angles. But what if this ruins courtship. But what if she's lying. But what if she's just after fame. But what if we ruin an innocent guy's career. But why didn't she leave. But what did she expect. 

 

To go back to earlier, again: what is central here, and what's not.

I see that side of the argument, and I agree with you. Except that I wildly disagree that the impulse to find an answer is the wrong one. To me at least, either we're trying to fix this by finding solutions, or we're ok with the status quo. (And realistically, we're all somewhere between those extremes.)

 

What I've been trying to say, is that we need men to accept that women have a voice, and a strong one, in sexual encounters and to respect it. And we need women to know that they have a voice, and a strong one, in sexual encounters and to use it.

Edited by RedDenver
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12 minutes ago, zoogs said:

I think what Nebfanatic means by "everyone" is he's trying to characterize the arguments of the people who are pushing back, the ones who are pointing to this story and saying, Ha! #MeToo now discredited.

 

 

Yeah, that's very clearly obvious. And it's also clearly a mischaracterization.

 

 

But in the sake of not only blaming women and talking about what she should have done differently,

 

Let's talk about consent. Let's talk about how almost all sex had between adults doesn't actually meet a legal definition of consent. Why? How do we fix it? Do we really even believe in it? How do we expect and demand men to start respecting that idea when we don't teach it, don't give any positive reinforcement to it, and really most of the time don't even believe in it? 

Edited by Landlord
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@RedDenver, I worded that poorly. What I meant was I think we can grasp that this is a problem, and then we want to settle it with a quick/neat fix so that it can go away again. I don't think that's possible -- I think we're in for a very long, ongoing conversation about this. As for what you say: I agree with you. Well put.

 

@Landlord maybe my experiences are different from yours but um, I would not agree with "almost all" -- by a long shot. But that's some of the right areas to be reflecting on, I think. 

Edited by zoogs
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9 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

@Landlord maybe my experiences are different from yours but um, I would not agree with "almost all" -- by a long shot. But that's some of the right areas to be reflecting on, I think. 

 

 

 

Anything sexual done without asking for permission and receiving a clear 'yes' does not meet a legal requirement of consent. Every time with every person. Most husbands don't ask their wives to kiss or touch or ________, and don't receive an answer. Most men going in for a kiss on a first date don't ask if the woman wants to kiss them. Even if they ask about one thing such as taking clothes off, nobody asks separately for each individual thing, which also doesn't meet a legal requirement for consent. These are just a few examples.

Edited by Landlord
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1 minute ago, Landlord said:

 

 

 

Anything sexual done without asking for permission and receiving a clear 'yes' does not meet a legal requirement of consent. Most husbands don't ask their wives to kiss or touch or ________, and don't receive an answer. Most men going in for a kiss on a first date don't ask if the woman wants to kiss them. Even if they ask about one thing such as taking clothes off, nobody asks separately for each individual thing, which also doesn't meet a legal requirement for consent. These are just a few examples.

This is the perfect point.  That is why I asked, how do most guys go about this?  

 

I have asked "Can I kiss you" before...I have also not asked.  I have asked "can I take this off" and I have not asked.  

 

So, who here has asked for consent at each step, every single time?  

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58 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Nope its not but people act like because its not assualt its not that bad.

 

So, what do you want done about it?

 

58 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Stop placing the blame on women!

 

So, when I talk to my daughters about this, I shouldn't bring up what they can do to not have this situation happen to them?

 

1 hour ago, Nebfanatic said:

Lets stop placing the responsibility on the women to handle these situations better

 

Again....glad to know I don't need to discuss this with my daughters.  It's an uncomfortable discussion.  So, now I just shouldn't have it anyway.

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16 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

So, what do you want done about it?

 

 

So, when I talk to my daughters about this, I shouldn't bring up what they can do to not have this situation happen to them?

 

 

Again....glad to know I don't need to discuss this with my daughters.  It's an uncomfortable discussion.  So, now I just shouldn't have it anyway.

Your free to tell your girls whatever you want to, i never told you how to parent. But if the culture around mens behavior doesn't drastically change soon, it doesn't matter what you tell them, they will still be at high risk of being violated at some point in their lives.

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Just now, Nebfanatic said:

Your free to tell your girls whatever you want to, i never told you how to parent. But if the culture around mens behavior doesn't drastically change soon, it doesn't matter what you tell them, they will still be at high risk of being violated at some point in their lives.

 

Can you point to anyone who has said men who act like Aziz aren't jerks and shouldn't act differently?

 

If you had daughters, would you be talking to them about how to avoid these situations and what to do if you find yourself in them? 

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