Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: Can you point to anyone who has said men who act like Aziz aren't jerks and shouldn't act differently? If you had daughters, would you be talking to them about how to avoid these situations and what to do if you find yourself in them? Then why don't we talk about how to change that culture and what we should be teaching our young men? Thats what I'm saying we focus on what the victim could have done rather than how do we shift the culture of entitlement. It feels to me we are asking women to accomedate the mens behavior rather than the other way around and thats what i dont get. We say she should leave or be more clear but to me it seems she was pretty clear and all of these things are just excuses for that behavior. Edited January 16, 2018 by Nebfanatic Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Then why don't we talk about how to change that culture and what we should be teaching our young men? We have and I'm willing to continue that conversation. I don't think anyone has told you not to talk about this. Who has told you not to talk about this? Also.....The woman in this situation specifically stated that she believes this was sexual assault. Because of that, do you believe it's useful to have an open an honest discussion as to if it really was sexual assault or not? Edited January 16, 2018 by BigRedBuster Link to comment
Fru Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Then why don't we talk about how to change that culture and what we should be teaching our young men? Thats what I'm saying we focus on what the victim could have done rather than how do we shift the culture of entitlement. Why not do both? 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Well here's another shift in sexual mores to screw up the messaging: Apparently teenage girls are less likely to consider oral sex as "having sex" and can thus control the sexual relationship while avoiding the pregnancy kind of sex. Young women increasingly consider oral sex to be empowering, and not necessarily reserved for boyfriends. I can assure you that if this is female "empowerment," boys are not about to argue. Also, this is not a fun conversation to have with your 16 year old daughter. Link to comment
NM11046 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hey guys - can I pull us all together here? We all agree there's a problem! That's something, and we're well beyond others in this. We agree that women have to be empowered, and men have to be less so (I know this simplifies what so many of you have detailed above). That there needs to be open communication - started and expected by all parties. Honestly I think the back and forths' are getting a bit nit picky. The real arguement is that there is a problem, and on that, we're all on the same page. Yes. There is. There are many ways to come at it and try to solve it or at least acknowledge it, and I think as a whole the last few days the open dialogue has begun. I think there have been some really good thoughts shared here on that as well. How worried would we all be if this circumstance was just a black/white issue that caused no debate? It's pointed out that men and women can far too easily relate to this situation. Now moving forward ... 4 Link to comment
teachercd Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: Well here's another shift in sexual mores to screw up the messaging: Apparently teenage girls are less likely to consider oral sex as "having sex" and can thus control the sexual relationship while avoiding the pregnancy kind of sex. Young women increasingly consider oral sex to be empowering, and not necessarily reserved for boyfriends. I can assure you that if this is female "empowerment," boys are not about to argue. Also, this is not a fun conversation to have with your 16 year old daughter. Oh my gosh...I could only imagine! Link to comment
NM11046 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: Well here's another shift in sexual mores to screw up the messaging: Apparently teenage girls are less likely to consider oral sex as "having sex" and can thus control the sexual relationship while avoiding the pregnancy kind of sex. Young women increasingly consider oral sex to be empowering, and not necessarily reserved for boyfriends. I can assure you that if this is female "empowerment," boys are not about to argue. Also, this is not a fun conversation to have with your 16 year old daughter. So Guy - how do you separate (or do you) the birds and bees' physical conversation and the empowerment one? The first is so very akward, I'm just wondering if there's anything that could have been said to me that would have instilled the other. The only thing I can think is a role play or scenario type conversation. And with that the need to get very specific. Is this something that parents would send their daughters/sons to as a "class"? And pay someone to have the awkward conversation and examples? What age does this need to start? What do you do if you find out your son/daughter has been in one of these situations? Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, NM11046 said: There are many ways to come at it and try to solve it or at least acknowledge it, and I think as a whole the last few days the open dialogue has begun. That is very true, and acknowledging the many ways to solve this doesn't diminish the need to solve any individual part. 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, NM11046 said: So Guy - how do you separate (or do you) the birds and bees' physical conversation and the empowerment one? The first is so very akward, I'm just wondering if there's anything that could have been said to me that would have instilled the other. The only thing I can think is a role play or scenario type conversation. And with that the need to get very specific. Is this something that parents would send their daughters/sons to as a "class"? And pay someone to have the awkward conversation and examples? What age does this need to start? What do you do if you find out your son/daughter has been in one of these situations? Well, if I may answer with my views on this. No way would I send my kids to a special class that I pay for so that some stranger can roll play sexual situations with them. I can't imagine...... My views on parenting is that it's a constant discussion. It's not scheduling that on January 25th, I'm going to sit down with my kids and go over sexual issues. Use things happening around you to teach your kids. It is very unfortunate that sexual assaults happen. It's very unfortunate that sexual harassment happens. We should all work to eliminate that. BUT....when it does happen and maybe something comes up on the news, I have no problem using that to have a very brief discussion with whatever kid is sitting there about what is wrong with it, how they feel about it, what is the appropriate thing for anyone in this situation to act or even how to avoid this. And, those conversations started at the age whenever they realized these happen. So....over time, it's instilled in them what is appropriate and what isn't, what's wrong and what's right, how someone should treat you and how you should treat them. Heck, my kids are 17, 20 and 22 and I still have these conversations....interesting thing is, many times, it's them that make the first comment when something is reported. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Then why don't we talk about how to change that culture and what we should be teaching our young men? Why don't you pay attention and realize that we are? Actually, I've tried to dive into some dialogue about consent, how we treat it, how we teach it, etc. (this is a pretty male-action centric topic), three times now, and you've ignored it every time in favor of, "WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT THIS??" Link to comment
ColoradoHusk Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The discussion about how parents deal with this stuff reminds me of a comment my son made to my wife and I. My wife got a new kitchen appliance recently, and the brand is Hamilton Beech. My son saw the appliance one day and randomly said "Hamilton Beech first started as a company that made vibrators". My son is 11, so I have no idea if he knows what a vibrator really is, he just threw out the comment. My wife and I started cracking up, and were trying to figure out how to respond. We weren't going to make it a big issue, since my son probably didn't even realize what he was saying. We just told him "you probably shouldn't be telling anyone else about that fact", and we left it at that. My kids are 11 (son) and 8 (daughter), I am sure my wife and I will do our best to have open discussions about sex and other issues as they get older, no matter how painful they are for all the parties involved. Link to comment
NM11046 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 I didn't even think about how weird it would be to have your kid talk with a stranger! I guess my thought would be that it's a qualified one (counselor, teacher, health practitioner) but point taken! And good for you for continuing to have the conversation - so if I may ask, what have they been like re: the Aziz situation? This one in particular seems more nuanced, and more commonplace than others that may come up in the news. Lastly - kudos to you for having the open dialogue all along. I was raised by strict catholics and all I got was that any kind of interaction was wrong until I was married. Talk about guilt on top of being a victim. Link to comment
NM11046 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, ColoradoHusk said: The discussion about how parents deal with this stuff reminds me of a comment my son made to my wife and I. My wife got a new kitchen appliance recently, and the brand is Hamilton Beech. My son saw the appliance one day and randomly said "Hamilton Beech first started as a company that made vibrators". My son is 11, so I have no idea if he knows what a vibrator really is, he just threw out the comment. My wife and I started cracking up, and were trying to figure out how to respond. We weren't going to make it a big issue, since my son probably didn't even realize what he was saying. We just told him "you probably shouldn't be telling anyone else about that fact", and we left it at that. My kids are 11 (son) and 8 (daughter), I am sure my wife and I will do our best to have open discussions about sex and other issues as they get older, no matter how painful they are for all the parties involved. So Colorado, other than the obvious discomfort, why didn't you talk about it other than saying he shouldn't tell others? Link to comment
ColoradoHusk Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, NM11046 said: So Colorado, other than the obvious discomfort, why didn't you talk about it other than saying he shouldn't tell others? Because he's 11. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, NM11046 said: And good for you for continuing to have the conversation - so if I may ask, what have they been like re: the Aziz situation? This one in particular seems more nuanced, and more commonplace than others that may come up in the news. To be honest, I haven't been around any of them when this is being discussed or brought up. In fact, this is the only place I have even seen it reported or discussed (other than random twitter posts).....admittedly, I haven't watched a lot of news at home lately. However, I'm not too worried about it simply because of the groundwork we have done over the last 10-15 years of discussions. So....I don't feel I need to use one specific situation to all of a sudden teach them about something. Edited January 16, 2018 by BigRedBuster Link to comment
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