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ajt1970

Carriker Chronicles - Osborne vs. Saban - Who's the Best?

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It is hard to compare teams, players, and coaches in different eras. Different demographics and different rules. 

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Just now, jaws said:

It is hard to compare teams, players, and coaches in different eras. Different demographics and different rules. 

I agree. One could say it was tougher to beat another traditional power in the old days than it is now. Most of the talent went to a handful of teams. So the power teams were better with more depth than they are now. Outside of bama which has depth stockpiled like the old days. Where most teams depth can't compare because of the parity of today 

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10 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

Also back in those days there was no recruiting services or hudl film. The teams had to do the dirty work to evaluate talent on their own. Much harder to find the talent. No one put together a list of the top 200 elite players on a silver platter 

 

Saban isn't the only one that has all these advantages. The competition for the best is greater now than it was before and with the scholarship limits it is harder to stockpile talent. 

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Just now, jaws said:

 

Saban isn't the only one that has all these advantages. The competition for the best is greater now than it was before and with the scholarship limits it is harder to stockpile talent. 

One difference is sec over signs then takes scholarships away to pad roster. Nebraska and big ten mostly honor our scholarships to kids 

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5 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

One difference is sec over signs then takes scholarships away to pad roster. Nebraska and big ten mostly honor our scholarships to kids 

 

Sure but they all do it.

 

Saban and TO can both be great coaches. I tend to think most here will lean towards TO even if Saban wins the next 4 championships. I am fine with that. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 4:47 PM, suh_fan93 said:

I don't think his article was homerish at all.  Carriker usually doesn't mince words.  I'll take TO any day of the week.  Saban wasn't in anyone's discussion until he got to Alabama and had the best of the best recruits on his roster every single year.

 

 

 

To be fair, Tom Osborne wasn't in anyone's discussion until the last five years of his 25 year career.

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3 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

To be fair, Tom Osborne wasn't in anyone's discussion until the last five years of his 25 year career.

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  They said/the book on Osborne was that he 'couldn't win the big one' but TO was definitely known and well respected by both fans and coaches imo before the national championships.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, suh_fan93 said:

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  They said/the book on Osborne was that he 'couldn't win the big one' but TO was definitely known and well respected by both fans and coaches imo before the national championships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, and in an argument for the greatest coach ever, someone who can't win the big one is certainly not a candidate. That's what Guy is referring to - Tom wasn't in any GOAT discussions for the first 20 years of his 25 year head coaching career.

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1 minute ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Yeah, and in an argument for the greatest coach ever, someone who can't win the big one is certainly not a candidate. That's what Guy is referring to - Tom wasn't in any GOAT discussions for the first 20 years of his 25 year head coaching career.

 

 

The funny thing is when I originally said this about Saban it had nothing to do with any GOAT discussion.  It also doesn't change the fact that I'll go with TO all damn day.

 

The end.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, suh_fan93 said:

 

 

The funny thing is when I originally said this about Saban it had nothing to do with any GOAT discussion.  It also doesn't change the fact that I'll go with TO all damn day.

 

The end.

 

 

 

Damn.  I was going to reply but now it's at the end.  I better up my BBS skills.   

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:33 AM, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

To be fair, Tom Osborne wasn't in anyone's discussion until the last five years of his 25 year career.

 

Bingo.  Plus, Saban didn't exactly inherit a team that had won NCs right before he took over at Bama and LSU.  When Saban went to Bama, it was a mess considering the sanctions and violations before his tenure.  I really don't want to discredit TO here, but I'd put the Bobfather higher than TO with regards to GOAT.  Bob Devaney took over a team that had only won 15 games in the previous 5 years.  TO took over a team that had won two NCs in the previous three years.  Devaney retired in his late 50's.  Imagine the NCs he would have accumulated had he coached longer. 

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I'm a 49ers fan. A Joe Montana fan. But at some point I have to tip my hat to Tom Brady. 

 

We can talk personality and style points all we want, but Nick Saban has surpassed Tom Osborne by the metrics most non-Nebraskans and Alabamans would use for this sort of thing. 

 

It happens.  

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Respect.  While we have our loyalties, respect for the job done has to be given.   My loyalty is with Tom but my head says Saban has surpassed him.  There are many reasons why I'd prefer to build a team around Tom but if the only criteria is NC, then I'd have to go wt Saban.   Now I could argue that Tom's top 3 or 4 teams could probably beat all of Saban's teams but then that would be comparing different eras and that is a fruitless exercise. 

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On 1/12/2018 at 10:03 AM, Enhance said:

TO with Alabama's location and recruitment pool would've been a scary, scary force. That's not to downplay the work Saban has done - bad coaches have come through Alabama and failed to succeed with that talent. But, it certainly doesn't hurt Saban's ceiling.

But then TO couldn't cover up the stuff his players did and it would be more national news.  How would people feel if Lawrence Phillips played today? The Peter brothers? 

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12 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Respect.  While we have our loyalties, respect for the job done has to be given.   My loyalty is with Tom but my head says Saban has surpassed him.  There are many reasons why I'd prefer to build a team around Tom but if the only criteria is NC, then I'd have to go wt Saban.   Now I could argue that Tom's top 3 or 4 teams could probably beat all of Saban's teams but then that would be comparing different eras and that is a fruitless exercise. 

 

Hard to argue with this.  Saban's best team is...what his '12 team that smoked Notre Dame right?  I would've liked to see how that team would've matched up with '12 Oregon team that had Mariota at QB, De'Anthony Thomas/Kenjon Barner at RB and speed all over the place.

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34 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I'm a 49ers fan. A Joe Montana fan. But at some point I have to tip my hat to Tom Brady. 

 

We can talk personality and style points all we want, but Nick Saban has surpassed Tom Osborne by the metrics most non-Nebraskans and Alabamans would use for this sort of thing. 

 

It happens.  

Any unbiased fan who looks at things objectively would say Saban.

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15 hours ago, huskerfan333157 said:

But then TO couldn't cover up the stuff his players did and it would be more national news.  How would people feel if Lawrence Phillips played today? The Peter brothers? 

I'm unsure if I follow. Why did what I say correlate to LP and similarly related off-the-field issues?

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I am not sure if I should hate Saban or Cooper for costing the Buckeyes a shot at the 1998 NC, but I will go with Saban. Saying that, I have to give the guy credit for what he has done over the years.

 

It would be interesting to see how some of the coaches in the past would have handled off the field issues, recruits, and parents today.

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On 1/12/2018 at 10:53 PM, Huskers93-97 said:

50-10 

 

Ha ha!  How about that head to head Osborne vs. Saban match-up!   

 

fyi:  At 60:10 there's a short sideline interview with new Sparty head basketball coach Tom Izzo.    

 

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18 hours ago, TGHusker said:

Respect.  While we have our loyalties, respect for the job done has to be given.   My loyalty is with Tom but my head says Saban has surpassed him.  There are many reasons why I'd prefer to build a team around Tom but if the only criteria is NC, then I'd have to go wt Saban.   Now I could argue that Tom's top 3 or 4 teams could probably beat all of Saban's teams but then that would be comparing different eras and that is a fruitless exercise. 

 

That's a fair point. Tom Osborne still fielded the best college football team ever.

 

I think the answer is Saban, and by a decent margin (6 championships to 3). This doesn't mean that I think Saban is any better of a coach than Osborne. I would actually have doubts that Saban could duplicate Osborne's success at Nebraska if he was given the chance. What Osborne did in the middle of nowhere was unprecedented....BUT championships matter.

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30 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

That's a fair point. Tom Osborne still fielded the best college football team ever.

 

I think the answer is Saban, and by a decent margin (6 championships to 3). This doesn't mean that I think Saban is any better of a coach than Osborne. I would actually have doubts that Saban could duplicate Osborne's success at Nebraska if he was given the chance. What Osborne did in the middle of nowhere was unprecedented....BUT championships matter.

OK Let's say Tom is the best coach to have ever coached at a non-recruiting hotbed place like the MidWest, Mtn West, etc.   And  I too don't believe Saban, Myers, Bear etc could have accomplished at NU what Tom did. Only one coach comes to mind who could have replicated Tom's results or exceeded it: that would be the BobFather Devaney.  He is another one that could have been in this 'all time discussion'  if he had coached beyond age 52 ( I think that was his age when he left the HC job and moved to AD - by the way - why did he make that move??  ) He may have made Switzer just a footnote in OUs coaching records.

 

 

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Titles do matter, but do they matter more than going 25 years averaging over 10 wins and under 2 losses?  Do they outweigh losing no more than. 3 games in a year over that span?  

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14 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

OK Let's say Tom is the best coach to have ever coached at a non-recruiting hotbed place like the MidWest, Mtn West, etc.   And  I too don't believe Saban, Myers, Bear etc could have accomplished at NU what Tom did. Only one coach comes to mind who could have replicated Tom's results or exceeded it: that would be the BobFather Devaney.  He is another one that could have been in this 'all time discussion'  if he had coached beyond age 52 ( I think that was his age when he left the HC job and moved to AD - by the way - why did he make that move??  ) He may have made Switzer just a footnote in OUs coaching records.

 

 

 

The BobFather is a lot better comparison to Saban than TO is as far as I'm concerned.  Both the BobFather and Saban actually built something.  TO simply inherited a NC winning squad from the word go.  Devaney didn't just win here either.  He has the highest winning percentage in Wyoming Cowboy football history at .750.  Devaney won at two different places that are non-recruiting hotbeds. 

 

TO was lucky to have started his career when he did rather than a couple of decades later.  Saban's replacement won't get 22 years to win his first NC.  I doubt they even get a third of that time.  It took TO nine years to win his first conference title.  Will Frost be allowed this much time?   

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12 minutes ago, Crazyhole said:

Titles do matter, but do they matter more than going 25 years averaging over 10 wins and under 2 losses?  Do they outweigh losing no more than. 3 games in a year over that span?  

 

In the 11 seasons before TO, Daveney won 101 games while only losing 20.  Michigan State had four consecutive losing seasons before Saban.  By year five, Michigan State had their best record in over three decades and their highest ranking in over three decades.  In the two years before Saban, LSU had won 6 games while losing 15 games.  The year before Saban, LSU lost every single conference game they played.  By year four, LSU won a NC.  When Saban took over at Alabama, he took over a program that had been hammered with sanctions.  By year three, he won his first of five NCs in his 11 seasons at Alabama. 

 

How a coach finishes his career is important.  However, is it any more important than how he started or what he started with?  Saban started at both Michigan State and Alabama when they were both enduring NCAA sanctions.  Devaney followed a coach who went 15-34-1 in five seasons.  In my opinion, TO isn't even the greatest Nebraska football coach.  This honor belongs to Devaney.  Devaney won his first conference title in year two just two years after Jennings had us going 3-6-1. 

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2 hours ago, junior4949 said:

 

In the 11 seasons before TO, Daveney won 101 games while only losing 20.  Michigan State had four consecutive losing seasons before Saban.  By year five, Michigan State had their best record in over three decades and their highest ranking in over three decades.  In the two years before Saban, LSU had won 6 games while losing 15 games.  The year before Saban, LSU lost every single conference game they played.  By year four, LSU won a NC.  When Saban took over at Alabama, he took over a program that had been hammered with sanctions.  By year three, he won his first of five NCs in his 11 seasons at Alabama. 

 

How a coach finishes his career is important.  However, is it any more important than how he started or what he started with?  Saban started at both Michigan State and Alabama when they were both enduring NCAA sanctions.  Devaney followed a coach who went 15-34-1 in five seasons.  In my opinion, TO isn't even the greatest Nebraska football coach.  This honor belongs to Devaney.  Devaney won his first conference title in year two just two years after Jennings had us going 3-6-1. 

Lots of GREAT points there,  but it's worth noting that even devaney credited Osborne for the 1969 turnaround and said he was pretty much running the show for the 2 national title squads.   Technically no, he wasn't the head coach but if you look at devaneys comments at face value then Tom was actually responsible for turning the program around and being instrumental in changing the way strength and conditioning was viewed by the entire football community.  

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3 hours ago, junior4949 said:

 

In the 11 seasons before TO, Daveney won 101 games while only losing 20.  Michigan State had four consecutive losing seasons before Saban.  By year five, Michigan State had their best record in over three decades and their highest ranking in over three decades.  In the two years before Saban, LSU had won 6 games while losing 15 games.  The year before Saban, LSU lost every single conference game they played.  By year four, LSU won a NC.  When Saban took over at Alabama, he took over a program that had been hammered with sanctions.  By year three, he won his first of five NCs in his 11 seasons at Alabama. 

 

How a coach finishes his career is important.  However, is it any more important than how he started or what he started with?  Saban started at both Michigan State and Alabama when they were both enduring NCAA sanctions.  Devaney followed a coach who went 15-34-1 in five seasons.  In my opinion, TO isn't even the greatest Nebraska football coach.  This honor belongs to Devaney.  Devaney won his first conference title in year two just two years after Jennings had us going 3-6-1. 

So the question remains - why did Bob retire when he did from HC? 

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12 hours ago, Crazyhole said:

Titles do matter, but do they matter more than going 25 years averaging over 10 wins and under 2 losses?  Do they outweigh losing no more than. 3 games in a year over that span?  

 

Keep in mind that Saban inherited an LSU team that had 3 wins and 4 years in the two years prior to him arriving, and a Bama team that won 6, 10, and 6 games in the three years prior to him arriving.

 

In 16 seasons at blue bloods (comparing his time at MSU to Osborne inheriting a championship blue-blood program is not at all fair), he's averaged 10.9 wins per year, 1 conference championship per every 2.2 years (compared to Osborne's 1 per every 2.08 years, with the benefit of shared championships), 1 national championship every 2.667 years (compared to Tom's 1 per every 8.33 years), and has only lost more than 3 games three times (his first rebuilding years at both programs, and in his third year at LSU).

 

If the argument is based on metrics, I'm sorry, it's not an argument. Saban wins.

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21 hours ago, TGHusker said:

So the question remains - why did Bob retire when he did from HC? 

 

You could ask John Madden the same. Some coaches can't stop coaching and will coach until they die (Bear Bryant & Paterno)

 

But a lot of coaches will tell you the job takes a massive toll, and when you feel you've hit the pinnacle (like Madden & Devaney) it's a huge relief to step away, especially if you can keep your hand in the game in a less stressful position, like broadcaster or AD.

 

And in hindsight, Tom Osborne seemed to retire relatively young, though it didn't appear that way at the time, when I was also a lot younger.

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1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

You could ask John Madden the same. Some coaches can't stop coaching and will coach until they die (Bear Bryant & Paterno)

 

But a lot of coaches will tell you the job takes a massive toll, and when you feel you've hit the pinnacle (like Madden & Devaney) it's a huge relief to step away, especially if you can keep your hand in the game in a less stressful position, like broadcaster or AD.

 

And in hindsight, Tom Osborne seemed to retire relatively young, though it didn't appear that way at the time, when I was also a lot younger.

Yes, us fans can get 'greedy' with their lives and forget that they have lives to live beyond the game.  We think of all of the extra championships they could have, would have, should have won if they only coached a few more years.  In the meantime, the time is slipping away for their family, etc. 

 

And it is better to leave on top as Bob, Tom and Madden did.  I have a KSU friend here at work - while he so admires Bill Snyder he sooooo much wants him to retire now or yesterday.  But he believes Snyder will work until he dies - he did the retirement thing once and now he is back. Unfortunately, in time Bill may be forced out and not be able to leave the way he wants to.  Like Paterno, he runs the risk of loosing the program as players want to play for coaches they know will be around for a while. 

Edited by TGHusker

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 2:06 PM, Crazyhole said:

Lots of GREAT points there,  but it's worth noting that even devaney credited Osborne for the 1969 turnaround and said he was pretty much running the show for the 2 national title squads.   Technically no, he wasn't the head coach but if you look at devaneys comments at face value then Tom was actually responsible for turning the program around and being instrumental in changing the way strength and conditioning was viewed by the entire football community.  

 

Great coaches can see when things need to be changed or mixed up.  The reason for the losses in the 67' and 68' seasons was lack of offense.  In all of those losses in those two seasons, we were shutout not even scoring a single point in three of the eight losses.  The most we scored in those eight losses was 16 points.  Devaney could see we needed something different.  TO overhauled the offense.  This really isn't a lot different than what Saban did in the NC game benching Hurts for the true freshman.  Great coaches make these changes.

 

The question I have is whether you'd want Frost to mirror TO's career or Devaney's career?  Keep in mind, Frost is eight years older than TO was when he took over and only four years younger than Devaney when he took over.  Would you rather have Frost win two NCs in eleven years here and then retire?  Or, would you rather Frost be in his mid-60's before winning his first NC?  We've just spent the last three years playing Bill Jennings type football. 

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50 minutes ago, junior4949 said:

 

Great coaches can see when things need to be changed or mixed up.  The reason for the losses in the 67' and 68' seasons was lack of offense.  In all of those losses in those two seasons, we were shutout not even scoring a single point in three of the eight losses.  The most we scored in those eight losses was 16 points.  Devaney could see we needed something different.  TO overhauled the offense.  This really isn't a lot different than what Saban did in the NC game benching Hurts for the true freshman.  Great coaches make these changes.

 

The question I have is whether you'd want Frost to mirror TO's career or Devaney's career?  Keep in mind, Frost is eight years older than TO was when he took over and only four years younger than Devaney when he took over.  Would you rather have Frost win two NCs in eleven years here and then retire?  Or, would you rather Frost be in his mid-60's before winning his first NC?  We've just spent the last three years playing Bill Jennings type football. 

After serious deliberation, I have decided that I want both.    

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..”best” is way to broad...the terms must defined to make good reply...however I suppose I tilt to Osborne...and that’s trying my dead level best to drop every bias and predisposed opinion...I say Osborne because of the peculiar effect he had on the team...every player I heard do interviews would be talking about Osborne in first 3 minuets..he had a permanent affect on players...I don’t hear players from 1-20 years ago that played on saben teams talk about his impact on their entire life than Osborne’s players...it is Osborne, it always Osborne that all the men in program flocked to..Osborne is a Christian man, a man of biblical values..that’s not lost on people..they gravitated to him..and trusted him...”trust” is understatement...Saben runs a business it seems..and Osborne ran a family that happened to play football ...Osborne knew full well the power of servitude leadership style..and it wasn’t a gimmick..that’s his nature and it always is the most effective in building relationships in organization..

 

 

Edited by 1994 Husker

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