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Parkland, FL High School Shooting


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59 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

 

My comment was based on people I personally know that share his views of gun ownership and protecting against a tyrannical government....but, they went apes#!t when a few black men took a knee during the anthem because they should respect our country better than that.

 

The two thoughts within the same mind are not logical.  

 

And when black men proudly display their support for Open Carry states, for some reason they lose those Second Amendment patriots. 

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5 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

I know A LOT of gun owners, and this statement isn't true with any of them. Assuming that someone who wants to keep their guns has no regard for their fellow citizens is an oversimplification, and kind of lazy.

 

I know a lot of gun owners. It's true for some of them.

 

I've listened to religious zealots passionately defend their faith. I've listened to gun owners passionately defend their guns.  I've seen the similarities, even if others haven't, or won't.

 

So much for anecdotal evidence.

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Barack Obama got a lot of heat for being overheard (and recorded) talking about how hard it is for Democrats to reach working-class voters who are frustrated about their economic conditions: 

 

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," Obama said.

 

Hillary took him to task (it was 2008) and Obama had to apologize, but I still don't know what he got wrong. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Barack Obama got a lot of heat for being overheard (and recorded) talking about how hard it is for Democrats to reach working-class voters who are frustrated about their economic conditions: 

 

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," Obama said.

 

Hillary took him to task (it was 2008) and Obama had to apologize, but I still don't know what he got wrong. 

 

 

 

 

He's right, but it's not something you want to be recorded saying and she wanted to score points off it.

 

Voters like to have something to be angry about it. Guns and religious freedom are things the GOP is good at riling people up about.

 

It's kind of unfortunate the Democrats couldn't get their base mad enough to vote to keep Trump out of office.

Edited by Moiraine
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I'm sure I'll get some backlash for this, but there have been some wild rumors about the shooter's political affilliations (both sides).  That's not surprising.  It seems to happen every time there is a shooting.  Snopes has weighed in on, and debunked, some of the rumors, but DID confirm something:

 

https://www.snopes.com/did-shooters-instagram-picture-maga-hat/

 

The now-deleted Instagram site with a red MAGA hat in the avatar, was confirmed to be the shooter's site by multiple sources, including FoxNews.  Here's a quote from one of his classmates:

 

Quote

 

Cruz always had his hair short and had a penchant for wearing patriotic shirts that “seemed really extreme, like hating on” Islam, Parodie said. The suspected gunman would also deride Muslims as “terrorists and bombers.”

“I’ve seen him wear a Trump hat,” the student said.

 

 

Also: 

 

Quote

on 15 February 2018, the Anti-Defamation League, which tracks and monitors hate groups, issued a press release stating that he may have been affiliated with Republic of Florida, a white supremacist group. However, local law enforcement says that as yet there is no indication of any ties between Cruz and any paramilitary groups, including ROF.

 

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8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Under what law can we do something about it?

 

 

Assuming we're talking about Kleve(?)

 

He has agreed, by being a UNL student, to comply with the code of conduct. I don't think it would be hard to argue in court, if it came to that, that he's violated it.

Edited by Moiraine
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9 hours ago, knapplc said:

Under what law can we do something about it?

 

Seriously?  I'm talking about actually having the opportunity to prevent an incident like this one and you're asking what law we can use?  Who cares.?  Just get it done, get this guy handled before he hurts.  Make an example out of him so it hopefully prevents not just what he wants to do, but what others may want to do.

 

We can't just go around punishing those who haven't technically done anything wrong though, right?  That's exactly the notion behind super strict gun laws.  They would affect everyone, innocent or not.  It's okay to talk about that but not okay to talk about taking care of a threat before that threat becomes an incident, then laws and rights come into play because it's a persons right to free speech to threaten violence.  Kinda just like the right to bare arms, but that's okay because guns are scary.   To me, people are scarier.  We need stricter people laws to go with the stricter gun laws.

 

Here's the thing.  I'm sick of seeing the "guns don't kill people, peiple kill people" crap.  I'm all for making it harder to obtain weapons.  I even suggested that this Kleve should legally be able to have his guns taken away because of that video.  These tragedies happen, these threads pop up and the main thing discusses is stricter gun control.  Yet duriing this clowns discussion many suggested ignoring the problem.  IGNORING IT!  Ignoring it is EXACTLY how s#!t like this happens, from the sound of it the FBI dropped the ball on this incident.  We actually have a chance to take care of the root if the problem at UNL instead of jumping to the gun problem after the fact, and nobody can find a way to handle it.

 

Honestly, I don't follow these stories super close. One, because they are horrible and two because the more coverage they get the more they happen.  That's the part people ignore.  After Columbine became a news mecca, these things started being emulated and glorified.  People messed up in the head saw it as an outlet and a way to go out in a blaze of glory.

 

The press needs to leave this s#!t alone, report the news and drop it.  Stop using it as a way to push an agenda because it's making things worse.  Get stricter gun regulation in place.  And finally, when given the opportunity to prevent an incident at the source, find a damn way to do it.

Edited by Redux
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39 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

Seriously?  I'm talking about actually having the opportunity to prevent an incident like this one and you're asking what law we can use?  Who cares.?  Just get it done, get this guy handled before he hurts.  Make an example out of him do it hopefully prevents not just what he wants to do, but what others may want to do.

 

We can't just go around punishing those who haven't technically done anything wrong though, right?  That's exactly the notion behind super strict gun laws.  They would affect everyone, innocent or not.  It's okay to talk about that but not okay to talk about taking care of a threat before that threat becomes an incident, then laws and rights come into play because it's a persons right to free speech to threaten violence.  Kinda just like the right to bare arms, but that's olay because guns are scary.   To me, people are scarier.  We need stricter people laws to go with the stricter gun laws.

 

Here's the thing.  I'm sick of seeing the "guns don't kill people, peiple kill people" crap.  I'm all for making it harder to obtain weapons.  I even suggested that this Kleve should legally be able to have his guns taken away because of that video.  These tragedies happen, these threads pop up and the main thing discusses is stricter gun control.  Yet duriing this clowns discussion many suggested ignoring the problem.  IGNORING IT!  Ignoring it is EXACTLY how s#!t like this happens, from the sound of it the FBI dropped the ball on this incident.  We actually have a chance to take care of the root if the problem at UNL instead of jumping to the gun problem after the fact, and nobody can find a way to handle it.

 

Honestly, I don't follow these stories super close. One, because they are horrible and two because the more coverage they get the more they happen.  That's the part people ignore.  After Columbine became a news mecca, these things started being emulated and glorified.  People messed up in the head saw it as an outlet and a way to go out in a blaze of glory.

 

The press needs to leave this s#!t alone, report the news and drop it.  Stop using it as a way to push an agenda because it's making things worse.  Get stricter gun regulation in place.  And finally, when given the opportunity to prevent an incident at the source, find a damn way to do it.

 

This is a good post, thanks Redux. B.C.!

 

I do disagree with you on a couple things, though. It's going to be an incredibly unpopular sentiment, but I think Kleve should be left alone at UNL. He's toed the line extremely closely, given the threats in the video, being in Charlottesville & his purported love of guns, but what he said in the video is an extremely vague, non-specific threat & should be treated as such. This is the same right afforded to anybody else - you make a non-specific threat like you, you get an investigation into yourself opened up. You make a specific, credible one, and you get LEOs busting down your door.

 

Up & until he makes a more specific, credible threat, Kleve should have intelligence agencies & LEOs so far up his butt they can see what he ate for lunch pretty much 24/7. I'm by no means opposed to him being under the strictest of surveillance, because he chose to say what he said & he should bear the consequences.

 

At the same time, I'm growing more disenfranchised with the free-speech situation on campuses all across America. People should have the right to say whatever they want, short of inciting violence, even if the views are disgusting ones like Kleve obviously owns. You can't silence fascists or white nationalists or alt-righters anymore than you can silence communists or anti-fascists or far lefters. Everyone must have equal access to the 1A.  In that same article I linked above, they mentioned a Nebraska Senator from Hastings proposed a bill to create an annual state report on free speech. The problem is he created it in response to a grad student giving the finger & telling a student she was a neo-fascist for recruiting for TP USA on campus, a scandal-ridden right-wing group. Conservatives flipped out about that incident & accused the university of being hostile to conservatives. Here's another article on how badly they screwed it up. Also see Knapp's thread in the White Nationalist thread.

 

The problem is none of them care about how the grad student was fired for expressing her opinion. This was wrong, clear as day, but the university did it to kowtow to angry conservatives in a very conservative state.

 

But I digress... I'm with you. I don't agree with removing Kleve but by all means everyone appears to be rallying AWAY from him & showing him just how unpopular & awful his views are. I'm definitely with you on the bit about the press needing to play down this stuff, too. People continue shooting up schools because they think they'll go out in a blaze of glory & be remembered. We need to deny them that notoriety.

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If it's a defending an individuals right to free speech you have to allow them their right to bare arms as well, that's the catch 22.  So if we start suggesting removing ones right to bare arms I see no reason we can't put a boot in the ass of anyone who mildly threatens violence based on their allegiances.  And vague threats or not, today we can't really afford to be choosy with level of threat when it comes to the well being of students.

 

I first found the news of this specific incident out on the Snapchat story page.  That is ridiculous to me.  Way too much coverage and does more harm than good.

Edited by Redux
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