What reforms to American immigration do you support?

[Moiraine]

12 minutes ago, GBRFAN said:

 

The evidence is common sense - when you give people money that is close to equal what they would make working - SOME are going to choose not to work.  

 

I'm sure 90% or even 95% of the people on welfare need and deserve all or most of that money - however removing that 5-10 % would save a lot of $$$ and would also help replace any works that had to go back to where they are legal.  Your graph showed my point - the "poor" received benefits 12% higher than their portion %.  The next two sectors were smaller than there portion.

 

 

It didn't show your point at all. The poor receive more benefits because they qualify for more benefits. There is nothing in that graph that has anything to do with showing that taking away benefits would cause people to work more.

[GBRFAN]

It was stated that the middle class benefit more than anyone else - i stated that the graph showed just the opposite that the poor benefited more than anyone.   That is a fact since math/numbers don't lie.  I also stated (not referencing the graph) that common sense shows that when you give money to individuals there will be a certain group that take the handout instead of going out and working for it.  I hope we can all agree that this is true - it's not a bold statement.

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, GBRFAN said:

It was stated that the middle class benefit more than anyone else - i stated that the graph showed just the opposite that the poor benefited more than anyone.   That is a fact since math/numbers don't lie.  I also stated (not referencing the graph) that common sense shows that when you give money to individuals there will be a certain group that take the handout instead of going out and working for it.  I hope we can all agree that this is true - it's not a bold statement.

 

 

I agree with the first half but I didn't see you ever make that point until after the graph was posted. The post I saw said people whose benefits are taken away will become healthy and start working. The graph doesn't show that. Yet you claimed it backed up a point you had previously made.

 

To the last half, yes I'm sure that applies to some but I think it's extremely overstated. I was on food stamps for 12 months and every 6 months you have to prove employment of 20+ hours per week (in Nebraska, at least).

 

Also, complaining about welfare, or even worse - things like social security, is missing the forest for the trees. I don't think I'm making a bold statement by saying corporate/white collar fraud cost us a s#!tton more $.  As do some of the stupid (but legal) tax loopholes.

[DrunkOffPunch]

1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

I was on food stamps for 12 months and every 6 months you have to prove employment of 20+ hours per week (in Nebraska, at least).

We really need to fix food stamp loopholes. There are some very well off farmers in my area who are on food stamps. They run their farm as an LLC and their wives don’t work other jobs so they claim a small enough amount as payment from their company each year so that they qualify for such benefits, while all of their brand new vehicles and such are ‘owned’ by the LLC.

[Moiraine]

30 minutes ago, DrunkOffPunch said:

We really need to fix food stamp loopholes. There are some very well off farmers in my area who are on food stamps. They run their farm as an LLC and their wives don’t work other jobs so they claim a small enough amount as payment from their company each year so that they qualify for such benefits, while all of their brand new vehicles and such are ‘owned’ by the LLC.

 

 

Come to think of it, I was talking to my mom yesterday about what she pays herself from her business, and based on that conversation I think she is eligible for food stamps too, even though she makes plenty of profit from the business.

[BigRedBuster]

increase legal immigration and refugees, make becoming a citizen easier and more stream lined, deport illegal immigrants....especially criminals.

 

In other words, enforce our laws but make it easier for people to abide by our laws.

 

TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT!!!!!

 

The vast majority of immigrants, both legal and illegal, just want a better life for themselves.  Give them a chance.

 

PS....I would have voted for cracking down on illegal immigration.  But the option has building a fence/wall and I think that's an idiotic waste of money.

[GBRFAN]

4 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I agree with the first half but I didn't see you ever make that point until after the graph was posted. The post I saw said people whose benefits are taken away will become healthy and start working. The graph doesn't show that. Yet you claimed it backed up a point you had previously made.

 

To the last half, yes I'm sure that applies to some but I think it's extremely overstated. I was on food stamps for 12 months and every 6 months you have to prove employment of 20+ hours per week (in Nebraska, at least).

 

Also, complaining about welfare, or even worse - things like social security, is missing the forest for the trees. I don't think I'm making a bold statement by saying corporate/white collar fraud cost us a s#!tton more $.  As do some of the stupid (but legal) tax loopholes.

This is my last post on this topic - because this will go on forever.   

 

I replied to a post about losing workers do to them being illegal and employers not liking that.  My point was that employers shouldn't have a choice and that some of these workers that have to leave could be replaced by potential workers that may be taking advantage of the system by getting easy benefits.

 

at some point my 2 comments were merged into one and it wasn't what i was stating.  I mentioned that a graph shows that the small portion of "poor" get a larger portion of the total "pie" / per person (which i agree they should, however my comment was that graph doesn't prove someone else point about the middle class getting the most....   the part about people working had nothing to do with the graph and i only said that was related to common sense - not the graph.

 

I was also on food stamps after we had our first child during our second year of marriage (for several months) - it helped us get over the hump and we appreciated it however the day we went on was the day i said i will work harder to get off.  My only point was that there is a % out there that takes advantage and i don't think the gov puts in enough effort to try and get people working instead of receiving aid in some cases.

 

I never complained about welfare i made a response to getting people into our workforce that are legal and ABLE to work and stated that this is aiding some to avoid jumping into the game.

 

I agree with your last sentence 1000x times over -  where did i say anything that would lead you to believe that i condone that behavior?  I would love to see the uppers get drastic penalties for using the system to defraud. 

 

- - - - - - - 

 

I jumped into this conversation late and maybe the graph looks like it was my reason for getting involved  - however it was more of just a timing thing....

[GBRFAN]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

increase legal immigration and refugees, make becoming a citizen easier and more stream lined, deport illegal immigrants....especially criminals.

 

In other words, enforce our laws but make it easier for people to abide by our laws.

 

TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT!!!!!

 

The vast majority of immigrants, both legal and illegal, just want a better life for themselves.  Give them a chance.

 

PS....I would have voted for cracking down on illegal immigration.  But the option has building a fence/wall and I think that's an idiotic waste of money.

 

K i lied - said i wouldn't post again.  However have to agree with this post.  I remember as a kid, my parents talking about a couple that was trying to go thru the process and it was brutal.  Make it easier, however make it REQUIRED.

[Moiraine]

3 hours ago, GBRFAN said:

This is my last post on this topic - because this will go on forever.   

 

I replied to a post about losing workers do to them being illegal and employers not liking that.  My point was that employers shouldn't have a choice and that some of these workers that have to leave could be replaced by potential workers that may be taking advantage of the system by getting easy benefits.

 

at some point my 2 comments were merged into one and it wasn't what i was stating.  I mentioned that a graph shows that the small portion of "poor" get a larger portion of the total "pie" / per person (which i agree they should, however my comment was that graph doesn't prove someone else point about the middle class getting the most....   the part about people working had nothing to do with the graph and i only said that was related to common sense - not the graph.

 

I was also on food stamps after we had our first child during our second year of marriage (for several months) - it helped us get over the hump and we appreciated it however the day we went on was the day i said i will work harder to get off.  My only point was that there is a % out there that takes advantage and i don't think the gov puts in enough effort to try and get people working instead of receiving aid in some cases.

 

I never complained about welfare i made a response to getting people into our workforce that are legal and ABLE to work and stated that this is aiding some to avoid jumping into the game.

 

I agree with your last sentence 1000x times over -  where did i say anything that would lead you to believe that i condone that behavior?  I would love to see the uppers get drastic penalties for using the system to defraud. 

 

- - - - - - - 

 

I jumped into this conversation late and maybe the graph looks like it was my reason for getting involved  - however it was more of just a timing thing....

 

 

Gotcha - it just wasn't very clear.

You shouldn't check out of the convo. It's politics so getting annoyed is normal

[TGHusker]

23 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

increase legal immigration and refugees, make becoming a citizen easier and more stream lined, deport illegal immigrants....especially criminals.

 

In other words, enforce our laws but make it easier for people to abide by our laws.

 

TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT!!!!!

 

The vast majority of immigrants, both legal and illegal, just want a better life for themselves.  Give them a chance.

 

PS....I would have voted for cracking down on illegal immigration.  But the option has building a fence/wall and I think that's an idiotic waste of money.

Agree wt this ----  is it just me but it seems that BRB and I agree a lot    I know a smart guy when I see one.

 

Ok let me add some thoughts 

Don't deport anyone here other than the criminals.  If they come back, then take them to trial in our courts and lock them up if guilty. 

Create a path to citizenship for the others.  No immediate automatic thing.  They should go through the classes that others go through to become citizens - then they have earned the right to vote.   The republicans are going to have to win their vote by better policy. As mentioned before, most Mexican families are pro-religion, pro-life, very family centered.  Maybe they see through the republican hypocrisy or failure to perform and therefore vote Dem for security reasons (safety net).   Immigration policy should not be formulated based on how it may affect the future voting habits of immigrants.  In the mean time we need to invite the 'illegals' to come out of the darkness.  Given them cards that allow them to stay but not as citizens - but where their pay is taxed so that they contribute to our society in a financial way (and not just sending the money back to Mexico, etc) - as our society is bearing a very heavy cost for education and hospital/medical care for the many that are here. 

 

I do think we should reintroduce a skills based system as a priority but allow a certain % in for other reasons.  We need the skilled to be a part of our system but yet if that is all we allow in then we lose our heart - which would be ruinous for us as a society (I sound like a crying soft heart liberal now - which in this case isn't a bad thing)

 

The wall itself will probably prove to be a big waste of money and used to enrich friends of the family.

 

 

[BigRedBuster]

55 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Don't deport anyone here other than the criminals.  If they come back, then take them to trial in our courts and lock them up if guilty. 

 

Here's the fly in the ointment on this issue.

 

Let's say someone gets arrested for assault who is found to be an illegal immigrant.  Do you deport them immediately or do you wait till after trial to prove they are guilty?  Remember, in this country, you are innocent to proven guilty.  Now, if you choose to wait till after trial, do you allow for them to be let out on bail like any other accused person in a similar type situation?  If you say no, where are we going to house them?  If you say yes, then, you are allowing an accused violent illegal immigrant back out on the streets.

58 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Create a path to citizenship for the others.  No immediate automatic thing.  They should go through the classes that others go through to become citizens - then they have earned the right to vote.

 

How are you going to prove to these people that they can trust what we say?  We already have screwed over people who came out of the shadows as DACA what Trump has done.  Do you think those people are going to trust the US government again?

IF we put something like this in place, the process needs to be done in less than 2 years.  Here's why.  Let's say we have a President and congress in place that supports this.  That doesn't mean in 2 years we will.  So, these people will need to be able to come out of the shadows and become citizens in the amount of time it would take for the people in government to change their minds.

[BigRedBuster]

And, let's remember, that this type of stuff happens.  So, if you are going to deport people who are just arrested before and before trial, you are going to be potentially tearing families apart on false charges.