Would we really be better off under President Clinton?

[Big Red 40]

True same in Nebraska 

[Fru]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

 

I live in Colorado. If I had voted for Hillary how would anything in the election have changed? Heck, if ever man, woman, child, dog, cat, and hamster in Colorado had voted for Hillary, how would anything in the election have changed?

 

I guess it ultimately boils down to, do you want to attempt to absolve yourself of any personal guilt by voting for a throwaway candidate, or do you want to vote for the candidate that is the demonstrably better choice?

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, Big Red 40 said:

True same in Nebraska 

Yes, which is why @knapplc's claiming is BS:

41 minutes ago, knapplc said:

Every vote not for Hillary was a vote saying that a person was OK with Trump in the White House.

 

[knapplc]

Just now, Big Red 40 said:

True same in Nebraska 

 

Am Nebraskan. Know the reality of the Electoral College votes in Nebraska. Still did the right thing and voted for the only candidate that had a realistic chance of keeping Trump out of the White House.

I posted this picture in some other thread, but I'll repost it here.  It's shocking how thin of a knife's edge the election was. This has more to do with the Electoral College than any single person, but we, as individual voters, have a responsibility to protect our country from people like Trump.  Odious as it was, I did my part.

 

[RedDenver]

Just now, Fru said:

 

I guess it ultimately boils down to, do you want to attempt to absolve yourself of any personal guilt by voting for a throwaway candidate, or do you want to vote for the candidate that is the demonstrably better choice?

Absolve myself? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Does no one understand how the Electoral College works?

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

Absolve myself? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Does no one understand how the Electoral College works?

 

You're making it sound like a fait accompli that Trump would be elected. This is not the case. 

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, knapplc said:

 

Am Nebraskan. Know the reality of the Electoral College votes in Nebraska. Still did the right thing and voted for the only candidate that had a realistic chance of keeping Trump out of the White House.

I posted this picture in some other thread, but I'll repost it here.  It's shocking how thin of a knife's edge the election was. This has more to do with the Electoral College than any single person, but we, as individual voters, have a responsibility to protect our country from people like Trump.  Odious as it was, I did my part.

 

And that's fine. I couldn't help or hurt Hillary, so I made the choice to vote third party to both send a message to the Dems (and Repubs) that their candidate(s) sucked while also trying to get a third party additional funding to make them more competitive in the next election.

[RedDenver]

Just now, knapplc said:

 

You're making it sound like a fait accompli that Trump would be elected. This is not the case. 

No, I'm saying I live in a state where Hillary was going to win comfortably based on polling. (Polling is also why you can claim Stein and Johnson weren't going to win.) So I made the best decision I could to prevent Trump or Trump-like candidates from winning in the future - by pushing for change in the system. By either major party changing their quality of candidate or a third party  displacing one of the failing major parties.

[Guy Chamberlin]

The Donald Trump we knew in November of 2016 was a horrible human being, the distillation of everything ugly about America, packaged and sold to our worst instincts.

 

Given the chance to lead America as our President, he has been even worse. It's hard to imagine someone making more childish, vengeful, and narcissistic choices. Many of them could hurt America for generations, assuming we ever crawl out of this hole. 

 

As bad as Trump was, his closest GOP challengers -- Ted Cruz and Ben Carson -- were equally horrible in their own way. All three would have been bottom-of-the-barrel candidates in any previous Republican election.

 

There's a lesson to be learned from Hillary Clinton losing to this s#!tshow of partisan rancor, but I haven't figured it out yet.

 

 

 

 

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

The Donald Trump we knew in November of 2016 was a horrible human being, the distillation of everything ugly about America, packaged and sold to our worst instincts.

 

Given the chance to lead America as our President, he has been even worse. It's hard to imagine someone making more childish, vengeful, and narcissistic choices. Many of them could hurt America for generations, assuming we ever crawl out of this hole. 

 

As bad as Trump was, his closest GOP challengers -- Ted Cruz and Ben Carson -- were equally horrible in their own way. All three would have been bottom-of-the-barrel candidates in any previous Republican election.

 

There's a lesson to be learned from Hillary Clinton losing to this s#!tshow of partisan rancor, but I haven't figured it out yet.

 

 

 

Our country as we've known it is doomed, and it's a matter of when, not if?

[RedDenver]

7 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

Our country is we've known it is doomed, and it's a matter of when, not if?

I go back and forth on this. Sometimes I think we're doomed but other times I think change may be possible. But I thought this before 2016.

[commando]

2 hours ago, knapplc said:

You either voted for Hillary in 2016 or you accepted the reality of a Trump presidency. 

i voted for hillary because she would have been simply a bad president rather than us putting 6 torpedoes into the great american ship that the trump u-boat is doing.

[NM11046]

4 hours ago, NUance said:

The problem is, you folks are examining this ex post.  At the time of the election Hillary was known to be corrupt.  Trump, on the other hand, was an outsider.  For the most part, what Trump would do as President was unknown.   At least with Trump some people could *hope* that he would be a good president.  After all, at least he was a good entrepreneur.   

There was zero doubt before he was elected that he was as corrupt if not more.  A corrupt outsider.

 

And he has dubbed himself a successful businessman, I think there is a lot to be exposed that will show if that is indeed the case.  Just because someone tells you they're rich and successful doesn't make it so.

[knapplc]

14 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

There was zero doubt before he was elected that he was as corrupt if not more.  A corrupt outsider.

 

And he has dubbed himself a successful businessman, I think there is a lot to be exposed that will show if that is indeed the case.  Just because someone tells you they're rich and successful doesn't make it so.

 

We demanded more proof that Obama was born in America than we demanded of Trump's financial freedom. Now we have a guy who, for all we know, is in debt to half a dozen Russian oligarchs.

 

It is an amazing level of hypocrisy that the same people who demanded proof from Obama haven't said a word to Trump about this.

[Guy Chamberlin]

4 hours ago, NUance said:

The problem is, you folks are examining this ex post.  At the time of the election Hillary was known to be corrupt.  Trump, on the other hand, was an outsider.  For the most part, what Trump would do as President was unknown.   At least with Trump some people could *hope* that he would be a good president.  After all, at least he was a good entrepreneur.   

 

Well people who were paying attention tried to point out that Trump wasn't a good entrepreneur at all, and was more blatantly corrupt than Hillary. 

 

Trump made some savvy and fairly high risk real estate investments in the 1980s, leveraging his father's existing business. That's about it. He would later go on to screw that up on the way to multiple  bankruptcies, and then lose money in the casino business, which is hard for a good entrepreneur to do.

 

Trump the celebrity pursued (iirc) 20+ different business ventures that traded on his name, from Trump Airlines to Trump Steaks to Trump University. 100% of these ventures failed miserably, most of them in a cloud of lawsuits. The mainstay of his empire, Trump Hotels & Resorts, still maintains more than 500 lawsuits on the books for non-payment, a ploy that uses a wall of lawyers to screw hard-working contractors out of the money owed them, and was SOP for the Trump organization. In normal times, that alone would brand you an insufferable prick among red state blue-collar voters. That same reputation followed Donald Trump into the world of international finance, where respectable banks finally refused to loan him money for anything, and the only people willing to work with Trump Enterprises were Russians of questionable character and agenda. Some day his tax returns will reveal exactly why he didn't want them made public. 

 

Trump was a blowhard who could easily be played. All this was well-documented prior to election day.

 

Also, his signature campaign issue was building a 2,000 mile wall on the Mexican border. A smart businessman could have explained why that made sense. He's not and it doesn't. 

 

But I do believe he played a wealthy entrepreneur on TV, where he mistook the formula provided him by Mark Burnett for his own business savvy.

 

There is nothing in Hillary Clinton's dossier of standard issue pay-to-play influence peddling to generate the same level of concern, or definition of evil. 

 

 

But I guess we're in a culture war, and you line up where you're told. 

 

So many of Hillary's votes were anti-Trump votes. So many of Trump's votes were anti-Hillary votes.

 

Sad.