Beck Vs Watson

[zoogs]

Zac Lee didn't fit the mold that Watson wanted at QB in 2009, but he did the best he could with what he had.

So he didn't have anything close to a Junior year Taylor Martinez and a developed Kenny Bell, Jamal Turner, Ameer Abdullah, etc.

Nit pick on the bold, I think Lee was probably one of the most gifted and promising QBs we have ever had. I think Wats loved the guy but as many have stated, it's too bad Lee messed up his arm so bad. He could have been something really special and we never saw that come to fruition.

As for your other question, Bo effected our transition to a run-heavy, mobile QB offense. I thought it was lip service when he first came aboard, but Bo really believes in making defenses defend 11-on-11, as he says.

As a result, Watson went to work out of his element coming up with a spread option offense within his West Coast system. It worked OK I think, given how explosive we managed to be before Taylor hurt his ankle in 2010, and given that some of Taylor's freshman mistakes were just unavoidable. But that mish-mash arrangement was unlikely to last very long, and we're reaping the fruits now of a more unified vision for the offense now.

 

[Undone]

Zoogs,

To the point that Lee was one of the most gifted and promising QBs we have ever had - hugely agree. He was very, very accurate and great at reading coverage. His senior season probably would have equaled Zac Taylor's senior year (had Lee been in a true pocket-passer role).

But I disagree that Watson was out of his element. I remember reading a Journal-Star article late in 2007 (as Ganz stepped in for the first time) that his preferred offensive style was one that spread the field. I believe he absolutely had the vision to bring us exactly where we are now once Callahan was out the door.

The good part is that it's a discussion that doesn't even matter now.

 

[knapplc]

Nit pick on the bold, I think Lee was probably one of the most gifted and promising QBs we have ever had. I think Wats loved the guy but as many have stated, it's too bad Lee messed up his arm so bad. He could have been something really special and we never saw that come to fruition.

I love Zac Lee as much as the next guy, but that's some pretty tall hyperbole there!

 

[zoogs]

Difference between a spread-the-field passing game and a read option, run it 70% attack, I think. IIRC Watson did extensive consulting with spread option experts like Chip Kelley because he needed to, to implement it. And the marriage of west coast principles with the spread option game was an unusual one by any measure.

As for Lee...well, I guess we will never know how on or off the mark that is about Lee. I'm certainly not basing that on my own (extremely amateurish) opinion, but a lot of people whose opinion on this I'd trust have gushed about him. Said he was oozing with NFL potential -- which, for all of Zac Taylor or Joe Ganz's stat triumphs, they weren't. Lee had the arm and plenty of speed.

But his first game started was in 2009 and he got hurt in what, his fourth game started, Arkansas State? Exacerbated the injury against VT and we never saw a healthy Zac after that. He did put up eye-popping numbers but it's hard to judge given the competition.

Admittedly there wasn't too much competition for him really, to earn that kind of praise. We had noodle-armed, gutsy system guys, and Keller, who did have pro written all over him but didn't do that well. If Zac hadn't got hurt and become even a 4th round draft pick, that would've been living up to those expectations. When was the last time a Husker QB got drafted as a QB? Think we might have to go back to the 80s for that...

Also apparently Zac was pushing Ganz pretty hard in 2008, but Joe won the job because he had won over the team. The rapport Joe had with his guys on offense was pretty great!

 

[knapplc]

Zac Taylor had more NFL potential than Zac Lee. Lee is a great guy, and people who know him love him, but being a great guy doesn't make you an NFL QB.

Lee's biggest problem with the NFL is his size. He's not even six feet tall (he's listed at 6'1", but I've met him in person and that's tremendously generous). At that height he'd have to be hyper-accurate, like Drew Brees, but he's not. In his one year of starting, with NFL receiver Niles Paul at his disposal (not to mention Mike McNeill and Chris Brooks), Lee went 178/304 (59%) with 14 TDs and 10 INTs. Taylor has thrown for more yards, more TDs and has fewer picks in about the same amount of attempts in the same year (his Junior year) as Lee, and nobody is talking about Martinez going to the NFL - not at QB, anyway.

 

[Stickney]

Comparing Watson and Beck isn't fair. Watson was attempting to coach an offense designed on the fly with personnel recruited for 2 differing systems. Had Joe Ganz and Swift/Pedersen been around for one more year (2009) Watson might have had a much different exit from NU (hired to be a HC somewhere).

Beck is running an offense from which he has his roots -- KU 2005-2007 -- and one that I think has a lot of the best elements of run and pass -- plus he is now coaching guys recruited to that system with veteran QB.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

If Zac Lee would have stepped in for Taylor Martinez when Taylor first got the high ankle sprain in 2010, I think things would have turned out better for all parties.

As I recall, Lee was healthy enough to play -- and he did step in briefly -- but either Bo or Watson preferred the clearly hobbled and increasingly freaked out Martinez.

I heard it was Bo who preferred Martinez, and for reasons unclear had put Zac Lee in his doghouse.

And everyone was scared to give Cody Green the ball.

Watson and Zac Lee had one game where the zone read came together as designed: the Holiday Bowl trouncing of Arizona. When Martinez ran it the next year, he was getting 50 yards on the same plays where Zac had gotten 5. Martinez doesn't get injured against Missouri, maybe another different ending for everybody.

I'm perfectly happy with Beck, but always thought the Watson-bashing was out-of-proportion.

If the offensive stats speak clearly of Shawn Watson's incompetence and justify dumping him, the last two years of Husker defense would likewise demand the firing of one or more Pelinis.

 

[Saunders]

If Zac Lee would have stepped in for Taylor Martinez when Taylor first got the high ankle sprain in 2010, I think things would have turned out better for all parties.

As I recall, Lee was healthy enough to play -- and he did step in briefly -- but either Bo or Watson preferred the clearly hobbled and increasingly freaked out Martinez.

I heard it was Bo who preferred Martinez, and for reasons unclear had put Zac Lee in his doghouse.

And everyone was scared to give Cody Green the ball.

Watson and Zac Lee had one game where the zone read came together as designed: the Holiday Bowl trouncing of Arizona. When Martinez ran it the next year, he was getting 50 yards on the same plays where Zac had gotten 5. Martinez doesn't get injured against Missouri, maybe another different ending for everybody.

I'm perfectly happy with Beck, but always thought the Watson-bashing was out-of-proportion.

If the offensive stats speak clearly of Shawn Watson's incompetence and justify dumping him, the last two years of Husker defense would likewise demand the firing of one or more Pelinis.

Watch Lee throw when he played in 2010. He was tossing ducks.

 

[Landlord]

Zac Taylor had more NFL potential than Zac Lee. Lee is a great guy, and people who know him love him, but being a great guy doesn't make you an NFL QB.

Lee's biggest problem with the NFL is his size. He's not even six feet tall (he's listed at 6'1", but I've met him in person and that's tremendously generous). At that height he'd have to be hyper-accurate, like Drew Brees, but he's not. In his one year of starting, with NFL receiver Niles Paul at his disposal (not to mention Mike McNeill and Chris Brooks), Lee went 178/304 (59%) with 14 TDs and 10 INTs. Taylor has thrown for more yards, more TDs and has fewer picks in about the same amount of attempts in the same year (his Junior year) as Lee, and nobody is talking about Martinez going to the NFL - not at QB, anyway.

His stats sucked, but you still remember that he had a torn tendon in his throwing elbow, right?

Just watch his highlights from all the cupcake non-con games and then the lowlights from Virginia Tech. Yes, the competition was far worse, but Zac was an entirely different quarterback from that point on.

 

[knapplc]

If Zac Lee would have stepped in for Taylor Martinez when Taylor first got the high ankle sprain in 2010, I think things would have turned out better for all parties.

As I recall, Lee was healthy enough to play -- and he did step in briefly -- but either Bo or Watson preferred the clearly hobbled and increasingly freaked out Martinez.

I heard it was Bo who preferred Martinez, and for reasons unclear had put Zac Lee in his doghouse.

Is it shocking that Bo preferred Martinez? With the benefit of hindsight, aren't we in a position to see the home-run threat Martinez posed every time he touched the ball? Pre-Missouri, aren't we able to look back and say that this was a good decision? I certainly think so, and the stats back that up.

And the same week that Martinez got his sprain, Zac bashed up his throwing arm in practice. He never played meaningful snaps for Nebraska again, and it had nothing to do with a doghouse.

His stats sucked, but you still remember that he had a torn tendon in his throwing elbow, right?

How does that serve to dispute anything? We cannot take from the fact that he had a bum elbow that he would have been a fantastic player without the pain. What we can say is, after having surgery, having healed, having a chance in front of the scouts, that he was deemed not to be an NFL quarterback.

His stats have never not sucked - or, at least, been average. Where do we find disputing evidence against the fact that he was not NFL-caliber, that he was not the QB with the most potential?

Bum elbow or not, Lee was never as accurate as he needed to be. Lee was never as tall as he needed to be. He was another Rudy - a guy with a heart the size of Nebraska, failed by his genetics. I'm glad he played for us, I'm glad he will always be a Husker. But I'm realistic about who/what he was, and what his potential was.

 

[zoogs]

Zac Taylor didn't have the arm to be an NFL QB. That's the basis for people being so hyped up about Lee. If I remember right he lit it up pretty well at the start of his career. He went 15/18 against Arkansas State, where he got hurt.

**OK, I messed up the stats and had to look it up to get the correction. The 15/18 day was post-injury, vs ULL. Ark State, where he got hurt, was actually his second game. So we really don't have much of a sample of healthy Zac Lee at all. Zac went 15/22 in his first game, 213 yards, 2 TD and 1 INT against FAU. He was 27/35 for 340 yards, 4 TD, and 0 INT in his second start against Ark State. From there his various injury troubles hampered him worse and worse as 2009 went on.

Nobody ever said post-injury Zac Lee was going to be NFL bound...and I don't think anyone was thinking first round pick stuff, either -- the height, as you say, would have likely knocked him out of that contention. But he did have an NFL caliber arm and could make all the throws -- before he wrecked it.

Supposedly Bo was unhappy that Zac elected to get offseason surgery on his elbow, when his staff felt it was unnecessary. But also supposedly by the time Taylor got hurt, Zac was hurt again as well.

 

[Landlord]

If Zac Lee would have stepped in for Taylor Martinez when Taylor first got the high ankle sprain in 2010, I think things would have turned out better for all parties.

As I recall, Lee was healthy enough to play -- and he did step in briefly -- but either Bo or Watson preferred the clearly hobbled and increasingly freaked out Martinez.

I heard it was Bo who preferred Martinez, and for reasons unclear had put Zac Lee in his doghouse.

Is it shocking that Bo preferred Martinez? With the benefit of hindsight, aren't we in a position to see the home-run threat Martinez posed every time he touched the ball? Pre-Missouri, aren't we able to look back and say that this was a good decision? I certainly think so, and the stats back that up.

And the same week that Martinez got his sprain, Zac bashed up his throwing arm in practice. He never played meaningful snaps for Nebraska again, and it had nothing to do with a doghouse.

His stats sucked, but you still remember that he had a torn tendon in his throwing elbow, right?

How does that serve to dispute anything? We cannot take from the fact that he had a bum elbow that he would have been a fantastic player without the pain. What we can say is, after having surgery, having healed, having a chance in front of the scouts, that he was deemed not to be an NFL quarterback.

His stats have never not sucked - or, at least, been average. Where do we find disputing evidence against the fact that he was not NFL-caliber, that he was not the QB with the most potential?

Bum elbow or not, Lee was never as accurate as he needed to be. Lee was never as tall as he needed to be. He was another Rudy - a guy with a heart the size of Nebraska, failed by his genetics. I'm glad he played for us, I'm glad he will always be a Husker. But I'm realistic about who/what he was, and what his potential was.

All I'm saying is that I don't think you can say either way, definitively, how hypothetically good he was. He completed like 75% of his passes against non-con his junior year, seems pretty accurate to me. Was also the son of two professional athletes wasn't he? Ran a 4.6 40...but just had bad luck with injuries that totally shaped the outcome of his athletic career. I'm not saying he WOULD HAVE been a fantastic player, only that I don't think it's fair to say that he was a lousy player. Because of that elbow, we don't know the player he truly was...an injury like that would turn Zac Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill or anyone else that we consider great into "lousy players" if they went through it.

 

[knapplc]

Zac Lee's claim to fame is that he won the Sunbelt Championship of 2009. Rumors of "Bo's Doghouse" are fun and all, but let's not forget that this rumor has been widely dispelled over the last couple of years (Phil Dillard, Alonzo Whaley, Courtney Osborne, etc).

Pre-injury Zac Lee was never NFL bound. Again, stature being an issue, he was not an NFL-caliber QB. Not pre-injury, not post-injury, not today well after injury.

I like Zac Lee. It wounds me to have to dispel this myth. But if we keep persisting, I'm going to start demanding facts and stats in support of this NFL myth, and they're not there. Believe me, I've checked.

 

[knapplc]

All I'm saying is that I don't think you can say either way, definitively, how hypothetically good he was. He completed like 75% of his passes against non-con his junior year, seems pretty accurate to me. Was also the son of two professional athletes wasn't he? Ran a 4.6 40...but just had bad luck with injuries that totally shaped the outcome of his athletic career. I'm not saying he WOULD HAVE been a fantastic player, only that I don't think it's fair to say that he was a lousy player. Because of that elbow, we don't know the player he truly was...an injury like that would turn Zac Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill or anyone else that we consider great into "lousy players" if they went through it.

:blink:

You cannot be serious. Show me anywhere, ever, where I've said that.

 

[The Dude]

I thought the thing holding Zac Lee back the most was his field vision. He was constantly throwing into coverage while he had other guys running wide open. I don't think his elbow injury had much to do with that.

He actually threw a pretty good ball, even with the injury, just threw it to the wrong guy far too often.