Lindsey and Owen Hospitalized

Toe said:
Frost seems to be pointing the finger both at the previous staff not conditioning guys well, and himself/his staff for not taking sufficient precautions to handle that.
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Without having all the information, I think this is as fair an assessment as we can make. There's a good chance some players a) weren't prepared for this and b) didn't keep up with their training during the holidays and early weeks of the month.

The former S&C coach is pretty well respected in the industry, but, I think it's very possible he was handicapped in his ability to train the players because of the overall previous culture and decision making. It's hard to fight with one hand behind your back.

 
Decoy73 said:
Geez a couple of you need to chill out. The staff recognized a problem and has taken the appropriate action. Calling this unacceptable is like missing the forest before the trees. Football is a rough sport.  Concussions, CTE, neck spine injuries, heat stroke.  Are these dangers not also “unacceptable “?  Stuff like this happens. It’s part of the risk. Now if it continues to happen and a pattern develops, then we can start freaking out.
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Here's the difference.

You must accept some of the risks you cited if you want to play high level football. There's no real way around it that I can see

You do not need to and should not be expected to accept the risk of rhabdo if you want to train. You don't need to train so hard that parts of you *literally* die.

 
Comfortably Numb said:
I'm curious about a few things because I really don't know squat about training at this level.

We all know these guys have to push themselves to see results. Seems like there could be lots of possible contributing factors.

A) pre-existing poor conditioning.

B) a player knowingly going beyond their limits or accidently doing so in an effort to make an impression.

C) poor programming or an underestimation at how slowly they may need to wean these particular kids into things.

D) poor supervision or an overestimation of what they can expect from these guys already. 

I guess my gut feeling, looking in from the outside, is that it is likely due to some combination of all these factors.  And I'm very hesitant to blame the coaches or S&C staff considering their past track record, awards etc.  My questions;

1- Isn't this pretty much a line they have to flirt with to get where they're going?

2- What exactly can the staff do to 100% prevent this and still get results?

3- I realize this is not what anybody wants to happen but couldn't it be a pretty innocent occurrence in this particular case where I think we all suspect not enough work has been going on in this program for quite awhile?
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Jason Sitoke said:
Fair questions.  I'll offer my unsolicited opinion:

1- I would argue no, and my reasoning is this:  most teams that are where we want to be aren't getting players hospitalized...if that line was being hedged, I think this would be a pretty regular occurence in some of the football factory schools

2-That's a bit of an unfair question.  Like asking 'how can you guarantee that a seatbelt will absolutely save my life?'   I would say that these are kids and parents giving their absolute trust to this football program and school.  We have well paid coaches, trainers and great facilities.  The resources and expertise should be abundant to train these kids safely.

3-Whatever the reason...I think it can be perfectly reasonable to suggest:

       a) this happened for a lot of reasons, and yes maybe we can all feel good about kicking Riley in the a$$ one more time on the way out and blame him

       b) we have very responsible individuals that take this job very seriously and this is a bit of a freak occurrence

       c) Frost is telling us this is serious and that he is responsible ultimately....so it's ok that the fans treat this as serious and hold Frost responsible as well.
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I'm going to disagree with 1 & 2 and I'll explain why.

1- I'm going to say it was purely accidental and I'm sure they'll keep an even closer eye on it to help prevent any recurrence. Most teams that are where we want to be are probably in better shape to handle a workout that has been scaled back 20%. It sounds to me like they made all the plans they could to try to prevent this, short of holding more Rileyesque workouts, and it still happened. Maybe my question was unfairly loaded. Maybe it's not a line teams flirt with....unless they're in extremely poor shape and then maybe the line gets crossed accidentally.

2- Based on what I've stated in #1, I don't think it's an unfair question at all if it's aimed at some posters who immediately want to blame it on poor programming or poor supervision or some shortcoming of the staff. I think we do have the resources and expertise to train these kids safely and by all accounts that is exactly what we were doing....but it still happened. We may basically agree here but I think it a bit unfair to place blame on a staff who obviously was taking all foreseeable steps to avoid this. My question was a being little facetious. I don't think every and all bad thing can be 100% prevented and I think expecting that to be the case is unreasonable.

I have not suggested anyone not treat this seriously and it is obvious the staff takes it seriously, took every precaution and acted quickly and prudently to assure athlete safety. Sometimes sh#t happens no matter how much you plan to avoid it.

 
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Comfortably Numb said:
I'm going to disagree with 1 & 2 and I'll explain why.

1- I'm going to say it was purely accidental and I'm sure they'll keep an even closer eye on it to help prevent any recurrence. Most teams that are where we want to be are probably in better shape to handle a workout that has been scaled back 20%. It sounds to me like they made all the plans they could to try to prevent this, short of holding more Rileyesque workouts, and it still happened. Maybe my question was unfairly loaded. Maybe it's not a line teams flirt with....unless they're in extremely poor shape and then maybe the line gets crossed accidentally.

2- Based on what I've stated in #1, I don't think it's an unfair question at all if it's aimed at some posters who immediately want to blame it on poor programming or poor supervision or some shortcoming of the staff. I think we do have the resources and expertise to train these kids safely and by all accounts that is exactly what we were doing....but it still happened. We may basically agree here but I think it a bit unfair to place blame on a staff who was obviously was taking all foreseeable steps to avoid this. My question was a being little facetious. I don't think every and all bad thing can be 100% prevented and I think expecting that to be the case is unreasonable.

I have not suggested anyone not treat this seriously and it is obvious the staff takes it seriously, took every precaution and acted quickly and prudently to assure athlete safety. Sometimes sh#t happens no matter how much you plan to avoid it.
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Boom  :thumbs

 
DaveH said:
Here's the difference.

You must accept some of the risks you cited if you want to play high level football. There's no real way around it that I can see

You do not need to and should not be expected to accept the risk of rhabdo if you want to train. You don't need to train so hard that parts of you *literally* die.
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Precisely. I don't understand why it's difficult to acknowledge this situation is unacceptable, regardless of who deserves the blame. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen even if the previous coaches didn't hold players accountable. It shouldn't happen if a player slacked off on holiday workouts. It shouldn't happen based on a prescribed workout regimen.

Without all the facts and first hand knowledge, all we can really do is accept their words that they're taking this very seriously.

 
Enhance said:
Precisely. I don't understand why it's difficult to acknowledge this situation is unacceptable, regardless of who deserves the blame. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen even if the previous coaches didn't hold players accountable. It shouldn't happen if a player slacked off on holiday workouts. It shouldn't happen based on a prescribed workout regimen.

Without all the facts and first hand knowledge, all we can really do is accept their words that they're taking this very seriously.
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Many things are unacceptable and shouldn't happen, this is one of them....but then again, so is going 4-8.

 
Enhance said:
Precisely. I don't understand why it's difficult to acknowledge this situation is unacceptable, regardless of who deserves the blame. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen even if the previous coaches didn't hold players accountable. It shouldn't happen if a player slacked off on holiday workouts. It shouldn't happen based on a prescribed workout regimen.

Without all the facts and first hand knowledge, all we can really do is accept their words that they're taking this very seriously.
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I don't understand your perspective fully.  The only way to guarantee that rhabdo does not occur would be to avoid vigorous physical conditioning.  

There is no way for either the staff or the athletes to know where the line is between good hard work, and overwork...

ALL physical training causes some degree of muscle fiber damage.  It's simply a matter of how much is done and whether the body can respond productively to that damage.  Rhabdo isn't really a binary diagnosis.  There are highly variable levels of CK levels in the blood signifying muscle breakdown.  At some point the number on the lab chart reaches the threshold to officially dx Rhabdomyolysis and significant concern for kidney function becomes the overwhelming priority for the health care providers.

 
Comfortably Numb said:
I'm going to disagree with 1 & 2 and I'll explain why.

1- I'm going to say it was purely accidental and I'm sure they'll keep an even closer eye on it to help prevent any recurrence. Most teams that are where we want to be are probably in better shape to handle a workout that has been scaled back 20%. It sounds to me like they made all the plans they could to try to prevent this, short of holding more Rileyesque workouts, and it still happened. Maybe my question was unfairly loaded. Maybe it's not a line teams flirt with....unless they're in extremely poor shape and then maybe the line gets crossed accidentally.

2- Based on what I've stated in #1, I don't think it's an unfair question at all if it's aimed at some posters who immediately want to blame it on poor programming or poor supervision or some shortcoming of the staff. I think we do have the resources and expertise to train these kids safely and by all accounts that is exactly what we were doing....but it still happened. We may basically agree here but I think it a bit unfair to place blame on a staff who was obviously was taking all foreseeable steps to avoid this. My question was a being little facetious. I don't think every and all bad thing can be 100% prevented and I think expecting that to be the case is unreasonable.

I have not suggested anyone not treat this seriously and it is obvious the staff takes it seriously, took every precaution and acted quickly and prudently to assure athlete safety. Sometimes sh#t happens no matter how much you plan to avoid it.
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Well I guess we'll have to agree...and disagree.  

I tend not to be presumptious about what factors led these kids to the hospital.  I do know that the current staff is as aware as anyone of any possible shortcomings with the current roster in terms of conditioning.  Once again, regardless of the factors, the coaching staff is responsible for what happens, and they are accepting responsibility.

This shouldn't happen.  It did happen.  Take proper precautions, learn and move on.

 
PasstheDamnBallGuy said:
So I have some genuine question here: What can/should a training staff be doing to watch out for this? If it can be caused by acute over-training wouldn't that be really hard to detect? How do you tell someone is over-lifting in a single session in which you are training to exhaustion either way? 
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Each athlete has to know his/her own limits as well. Self reporting symptoms would help, but at the same time a lot of guys wouldn't do that either.

 
Rhabdo, concussions, CTE, C-spine injuries, compound fractures other freak serious injuries (e.g Teddy Bridgewater’s) are ALL unacceptable, however we (football fans) seem to “accept” some more than others. 

If rhabdomyolysis was not a risk of high level training, then it would never occur. Ever. 

 
I hope the players make quick and full recoveries and we don’t see this happen again.

But I think it reinforces how out of shape and poorly conditioned our players likely were based on the half-assed work culture Riley and Co. built. So rather than blaming Frost and his staff for this, I’d say the greater share of blame falls on Riley and his staff. How ridiculously pathetic is it that we bring in the best coaches and S&C guy in the country and their attempts to put the team through the type of workout championship programs engage in routinely almost kills a couple of our players. Should Frost and Duval have anticipated that Riley was such a lackadaisical no-talent hack that he would have to ease the players into actual football workouts? Maybe. But the core problem is that Riley didn’t have the guys conditioned to play competitive top-level football. 

And for those acting like Frost was risking the lives of health of his players to get them in shape, that’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever read. No one cares more about his players than he does. Look at the love his guys at Oregon and UCF had for him. He loves those guys and wants the best for them. My guess is he just gave Riley too much credit and underestimated how incompetent he was at developing players.

 
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