Trump’s Accomplishments…at levels never seen before (2025 version)

[Crusader Husker]

Ohio is an interesting state.

Trump won easily the last 3 times.

Voted 58%-59% to protect abortion.

Pot is now legal

Property tax, in my opinion, is very high.  

Republican Governor who does not like Trump, but won easily in 2022.

I am moving to Wisconsin in the summer.  Let's see how that state works.

 

[Enhance]

I’ve acknowledged that more than a few times. Here’s another, yes, it was effectively a vote for Trump. I just happen to feel there are better people and systems to blame than someone who did not directly cast a vote for Trump. Sue me.

IIRC knapplc and I argued about this during the 2016 election since I voted for a 3rd party candidate that year, and I got the same criticism about how "voting for anyone other than Clinton was a vote for Trump." I think we sort of silently just agreed to disagree.

Here's how I look at it all - strategically speaking, yes, it is true that in our biased two-party system that if you don't vote for one of the major candidates then you are in essence 'helping' one of them.

But, that isn't a complete picture. For starters, I think it is fundamentally anti-Democratic to try and bully people into a binary voting system. That's the beauty of a democracy - you can vote for whomever you want and that is your right. Additionally, I find it ironic that anti-Trumpers will say 'if you voted 3rd party, you helped Trump win', but I don't hear a lot of pro-Trumpers thanking the 3rd party voters for helping Harris lose. Maybe that happens, but I certainly don't see a lot of it, which suggests to me that it's really more about whining from the losing side than anything else.

At the end of the day, the onus is on the candidates to make their case and convince voters. Harris and the Democrats didn't do that. Trump voters bear the primary culpability for him being in office, not the people who voted otherwise. It's just a weird trickle down criticism that I don't think is very valid even though I admit there is a strategic truth to it.

 

[Enhance]

I am moving to Wisconsin in the summer.  Let's see how that state works.

I strangely know a lot of Wisconsinites, probably more than any other state outside of Nebraska. Anecdotally, the way I hear it, Madison is grossly liberal, but the rest of the state is pretty tolerable regardless of your political affiliation. Otherwise, it's a lot of beer and cheese consumption.

 

[Nebfanatic]

I’ve acknowledged that more than a few times. Here’s another, yes, it was effectively a vote for Trump. I just happen to feel there are better people and systems to blame than someone who did not directly cast a vote for Trump. Sue me.

I don't plan to sue you, I can understand where you are coming from as I can understand the other position as well. Ultimately Elon Musk is to blame for Elon Musk doing a nazi salute at the inauguration. That being said the issue is more complicated than that. You can blame Trump for what he does you can blame the people who put him there but the people who do nothing or have done nothing to stop it must also shoulder responsibility. Hell, people who did everything to oppose Trump must shoulder responsibility because we the people have given him the power. Regardless of how, the responsibility does fall on all of us because all of us chose this together whether we individually voted for Trump or not. 

 

[JJ Husker]

I strangely know a lot of Wisconsinites, probably more than any other state outside of Nebraska. Anecdotally, the way I hear it, Madison is grossly liberal, but the rest of the state is pretty tolerable regardless of your political affiliation. Otherwise, it's a lot of beer and cheese consumption.

Aahh cripes! Youse put the walleye on the stick and then you fry it. It’s reeeally soooper dontcha know.

 

[Lorewarn]

Claiming that voting for a 3rd party candidate is voting for/supporting Trump holds about as much water as claiming that voting for Obama is voting for/supporting drone striking American citizens and innocent civilians in the middle east. 

There's some sort of truth to it I suppose, in the sense that we are all indirectly complicit towards one thing or the other because we don't live in a vacuum nor do we have the ability to exist free of the systems that make up our world, but the intent doesn't usually seem based in unpacking and exploring that. Seems more in the realm of just wanting to bully and scapegoat folks who refuse to submit to the imposing pressures of the powerful political apparatus refusing to give us what we want or need.

 

[Enhance]

That being said the issue is more complicated than that. You can blame Trump for what he does you can blame the people who put him there but the people who do nothing or have done nothing to stop it must also shoulder responsibility. Hell, people who did everything to oppose Trump must shoulder responsibility because we the people have given him the power. Regardless of how, the responsibility does fall on all of us because all of us chose this together whether we individually voted for Trump or not. 

Sure, the issue is complicated, but the insinuation here is that 3rd party voters should be equally culpable and feel guilty. IMO that's an over-generalization and over-simplification.

For starters, why does it seem anti-Trumpers are the ones largely trying to place responsibility on 3rd party voters? If the argument is that 3rd party voters were culpable in Trump's victory, then shouldn't the inverse be true as well, and pro-Trumpers should thank 3rd party voters for helping Harris lose? Except I don't see the latter happening much at all. This suggests that it's really not about sharing the responsibility but placing blame and making people feel guilty.
 

Additionally, the idea that voting third party equals a vote for Trump assumes that all third-party voters would have otherwise voted Harris, which we know isn't true. In reality, many third-party voters might abstain or choose a different type of civic engagement, which is as equally meaningful as casting a vote.

If anything, we should be focusing on why people feel like they need another option in the first place, instead of shaming them for not falling in line.

 

[funhusker]

Sure, the issue is complicated, but the insinuation here is that 3rd party voters should be equally culpable and feel guilty. IMO that's an over-generalization and over-simplification.

For starters, why does it seem anti-Trumpers are the ones largely trying to place responsibility on 3rd party voters? If the argument is that 3rd party voters were culpable in Trump's victory, then shouldn't the inverse be true as well, and pro-Trumpers should thank 3rd party voters for helping Harris lose? Except I don't see the latter happening much at all. This suggests that it's really not about sharing the responsibility but placing blame and making people feel guilty.
 

Additionally, the idea that voting third party equals a vote for Trump assumes that all third-party voters would have otherwise voted Harris, which we know isn't true. In reality, many third-party voters might abstain or choose a different type of civic engagement, which is as equally meaningful as casting a vote.

If anything, we should be focusing on why people feel like they need another option in the first place, instead of shaming them for not falling in line.

I don't want to get into this "argument", so this is just to address why we might see more complaints from the anti_Trump voters.  The most common complaint this 3rd party voters have against Trump is that he's unfit for office and/or a possible threat to democracy.  Their problems with Clinton, Biden, and Harris was based on policy. These people also admit that they know their candidate of choice has zero chance of actually winning the election.

So in essence, they throw their vote away instead of trying to make sure someone unfit doesn't get in instead of someone with questionable policy.

 

[Enhance]

I don't want to get into this "argument", so this is just to address why we might see more complaints from the anti_Trump voters.  The most common complaint this 3rd party voters have against Trump is that he's unfit for office and/or a possible threat to democracy.  Their problems with Clinton, Biden, and Harris was based on policy. These people also admit that they know their candidate of choice has zero chance of actually winning the election.

So in essence, they throw their vote away instead of trying to make sure someone unfit doesn't get in instead of someone with questionable policy.

I probably should've noted that my question was more rhetorical in nature. I think it's pretty clear why anti-Trumpers are going harder in the paint on 3rd party voters.

But, it's fundamentally anti-democratic to suggest votes for non-major party candidates are thrown away. There is obviously a practical side to the two-party system, but criticizing 3rd party voters runs counter to the principle of free choice and representation for all, and at the end of the day we're still probably talking about a group that isn't high up on the "who should be held responsible" list.

Like, some here are talking about how complicated it all is, yet we're also making black and white accusations of third party voters "throwing away their votes." It all feels very ironic. This feels more about making people feel guilty rather than addressing the deeper dissatisfaction with the two-party system and who gets propped up as candidates.

 

[teachercd]

I probably should've noted that my question was more rhetorical in nature. I think it's pretty clear why anti-Trumpers are going harder in the paint on 3rd party voters.

But, it's fundamentally anti-democratic to suggest votes for non-major party candidates are thrown away. There is obviously a practical side to the two-party system, but criticizing 3rd party voters runs counter to the principle of free choice and representation for all, and at the end of the day we're still probably talking about a group that isn't high up on the "who should be held responsible" list.

Like, some here are talking about how complicated it all is, yet we're also making black and white accusations of third party voters "throwing away their votes." It all feels very ironic. This feels more about making people feel guilty rather than addressing the deeper dissatisfaction with the two-party system and who gets propped up as candidates.

I agree.  Saying that you throw your vote away because you are voting for a person you know won't win would be like women stopping to fight for the right to vote in the 1860's because there was no chance it was going to happen.  

Changes happen, sometimes it takes a very long time.

With that said, I also see the argument from the other side and it does make sense.  I just don't think that I look at it that way.  

 

[Lorewarn]

Like, some here are talking about how complicated it all is, yet we're also making black and white accusations of third party voters "throwing away their votes." It all feels very ironic. This feels more about making people feel guilty rather than addressing the deeper dissatisfaction with the two-party system and who gets propped up as candidates.

It's not just the two party system, either. There's a myriad of flaws, compromises and unappealing factors in the way it's all set up.

Like, if you were beamed here from a different planet and had zero knowledge of how the elections actually work mechanically, but were introduced to the concept of voting to select leaders, and results representing the will of the people, it would make zero sense to you why one little square of land would have a vote that ended 50.1% to 49.9%, with 100% of the points going to the winner.

 

[Scarlet]

What could possibly go wrong with exiting the world stage in order to pay for tax cuts for the oligarchs?  It's not like China will try to fill the void.  And anyone care to take a stab as to why Egypt would be exempt from this?  Israel being exempt is gotta make the Palestinian supporters who sat out the election say "ouch...stop eating my face". 

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/24/state-department-foreign-aid-pause-00200510

'"Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Friday issued new guidance halting spending on most existing foreign aid grants for 90 days. The order, which shocked State Department officials, appears to apply to funding for military assistance to Ukraine.

Rubio’s guidance, issued to all diplomatic and consular posts, requires department staffers to issue “stop-work orders” on nearly all “existing foreign assistance awards,” according to the document, which was obtained by POLITICO. It is effective immediately."

 

[funhusker]

Ohio is an interesting state.

Trump won easily the last 3 times.

Voted 58%-59% to protect abortion.

Pot is now legal

Property tax, in my opinion, is very high.  

Republican Governor who does not like Trump, but won easily in 2022.

I am moving to Wisconsin in the summer.  Let's see how that state works.

The exact same way as Ohio and every other state in the Union, I'm sure.  People vote for "R's and "D", not policies.

 

[Nebfanatic]

Sure, the issue is complicated, but the insinuation here is that 3rd party voters should be equally culpable and feel guilty. IMO that's an over-generalization and over-simplification.

For starters, why does it seem anti-Trumpers are the ones largely trying to place responsibility on 3rd party voters? If the argument is that 3rd party voters were culpable in Trump's victory, then shouldn't the inverse be true as well, and pro-Trumpers should thank 3rd party voters for helping Harris lose? Except I don't see the latter happening much at all. This suggests that it's really not about sharing the responsibility but placing blame and making people feel guilty.
 

Additionally, the idea that voting third party equals a vote for Trump assumes that all third-party voters would have otherwise voted Harris, which we know isn't true. In reality, many third-party voters might abstain or choose a different type of civic engagement, which is as equally meaningful as casting a vote.

If anything, we should be focusing on why people feel like they need another option in the first place, instead of shaming them for not falling in line.

I'm not shaming anyone nor am I insinuating anything. I stated flatly the situation we are in is a responsibility we all bear. Are we all equally culpable? No of course not. But it's like squid games, regardless of what you voted individually, we voted for Trump as a whole. The games go on. I mainly responded at first saying Knapp wasn't harsh enough in reference to him calling Trump presidency an oligarchy but now I guess I'm shaming 3rd party voters for expressing the opinion that I can understand the anger at 3rd party voters and I also understand being confused by that anger because it doesn't really make sense. I get it from both sides but the fact is the discussion is moot. We can discuss why Trump won in an effort to prevent something like that happening again but blaming anyone for it happening is a lost cause that gains nothing. 

 

[Nebfanatic]

Also, you could make the same point that none of what happens is Trump voters fault either. They voted for Trump not for Elon to be doing Nazi salutes at the inauguration.