Carnes Starter?

I understand the criticism of Martinez's mechanics and execution in the spring game, but it's getting overblown. People spent the last 4 months since the season ended talking about the need for Martinez to improve, then got to see him play for about 5 minutes, and now those fans are on respirators until the season starts, even though they hardly got a whiff of what actually took place this spring.

Sam Keller looked great in the spring game. So did Zac Lee. Hell, Joe Dailey probably looked awesome in the spring game. It's the spring game, it doesn't mean a damn thing. Even if Martinez had looked great, it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

 
Martinez is young and will make mistakes. THe problem lies in that over the last 5 months, he hasnt shown any progress. Where as Carnes has shown great strides in his development. Most people i know are more concerned that Taylor has hit his ceiling, which i agree with.

but hey, what do I know. Maybe he will suprise us all. If he doesnt, I think Carnes will be the starter in 2012 (if Carnes keeps developing as fast as he has).

 
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Forge said:
Martinez is young and will make mistakes. THe problem lies in that over the last 5 months, he hasnt shown any progress. Where as Carnes has shown great strides in his development. Most people i know are more concerned that Taylor has hit his ceiling, which i agree with.

but hey, what do I know. Maybe he will suprise us all. If he doesnt, I think Carnes will be the starter in 2012 (if Carnes keeps developing as fast as he has).
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This is what's silly. In the last 5 months, we've seen Martinez run about 20 plays in the spring game. That's it. That's the basis for your claim that he hasn't shown any progress. With Carnes, you say he's shown great strides in his development, but how would any fan know that, since the first time we saw him was last Saturday.

 
well, throwing motion, decision making, etc. can all be seen in 5 plays, let alone 20. From the first game he played in until now, tell me what he he has improved upon? He didnt make any strides during the regular season, now 4 months later, he is making the same mistakes he made 8 months ago. His throwing motion hasnt changed, his footwark is still akward to say the least. Again, please let me know what you see he has improved upon since the beggining of last year, cause I have not seen any.

People been talking about Carnes since he lit people up last year on the scout team. Where you been man?

I dont think Carnes should be the starter. I am just worried that Taylor has hit his ceiling, or isnt getting the coaching he needs (with Watson as your coach, very understanable)

 
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Forge said:
well, throwing motion, decision making, etc. can all be seen in 5 plays, let alone 20. From the first game he played in until now, tell me what he he has improved upon? He didnt make any strides during the regular season, now 4 months later, he is making the same mistakes he made 8 months ago. His throwing motion hasnt changed, his footwark is still akward to say the least. Again, please let me know what you see he has improved upon since the beggining of last year, cause I have not seen any.

People been talking about Carnes since he lit people up last year on the scout team. Where you been man?
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Scout team?? lol, seriously? Carnes has a ton of potential, but hasn't played one down in a live college game. When Carnes torches a Wisconsin or Ohio St. Defense we'll talk. Remember the coaches and fans didn't put Taylor in the best position last fall. You want him to show development? Then let him play more than his freshman season.

 
Forge said:
well, throwing motion, decision making, etc. can all be seen in 5 plays, let alone 20. From the first game he played in until now, tell me what he he has improved upon? He didnt make any strides during the regular season, now 4 months later, he is making the same mistakes he made 8 months ago. His throwing motion hasnt changed, his footwark is still akward to say the least. Again, please let me know what you see he has improved upon since the beggining of last year, cause I have not seen any.

People been talking about Carnes since he lit people up last year on the scout team. Where you been man?

I dont think Carnes should be the starter. I am just worried that Taylor has hit his ceiling, or isnt getting the coaching he needs (with Watson as your coach, very understanable)
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People have been talking about Carnes, but we hadn't seen him until Saturday. How do you know he improved?

One thing since the beginning of last year that Martinez improved upon? His delivery isn't as rushed anymore. At the beginning of the season, he would see an open receiver and then in his excitement rifle a pass straight into the ground. While he wasn't 100% accurate at the end of the year, he did become more relaxed.

I don't think he showed much improvement in the spring game, but that means virtually nothing. He wasn't playing with the offensive line that he had practiced with, or with the running backs he had practiced with, or with the receivers he had practiced with. Timing was off, other players missed bIitz pickups or assignments that players like Burkhead would have gotten. So I don't read too much into the spring game.

I do know that the biggest strides he made before last season were in between the spring game and the beginning of the season. In last year's spring game, he looked lightning fast, but he had extremely happy feet, he was impatient in the pocket, and he rushed his delivery. He had settled down a lot by the beginning of the season, and he continued to settle into the role more and more as the season went on until he got hurt.

To argue that Taylor didn't improve is ludicrous. He progressed exactly like you'd expect a freshman to - he was inconsistent. He took 2 steps forward with WKU, one step back with Idaho, 3 steps forward with Washington, 2 steps back with SDSU, 2 steps forward with KSU, 1 step back with Texas, 2 steps forward against Oklahoma State (arguably his best performance of the year), and then he got hurt against Missouri. Once he lost his legs, he was just trying to keep his head above water.

Give him some time, let him get healthy, let him do some work, and be happy that it looks like we have a backup in Carnes who can step in should Martinez get hurt again.

 
The problem for me is that people are assuming that Carnes' limited knowledge of the playbook will mean that he would play like Martinez in '10 if we started Carnes this season.

But the one major difference between Martinez and Carnes is that Carnes clearly has the ability to improvise. Martinez has two modes: Stand in pocket and survey the field, or take off on a designed run.

Carnes has the ability to roll the pocket and improvise a throw. He can buy time and wait for a receiver to break loose. He is a lot like Pryor in that sense. Carnes ability to throw on the run means that he doesn't have to commit between "throwing mode" and "running mode." He is always in both.

The reason I mention this is because these assets will allow him to make plays despite a limited knowledge of the PB and he would be leaps and bounds ahead of where Martinez was at the same time last year.

Martinez '10 = Mediocre knowledge of playbook, terrible fundamentals, no ability to improvise, great linear speed

Carnes '11 = Mediocre knowledge of playbook, good fundamentals, excellent ability to improvise, pretty good speed

If we start Carnes now, we are no worse off than we were last year. And if Martinez is not improving and has not yet overcome his injuries, I am not sure you are worse off than you would be starting sophomore Martinez.

 
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I still think you have to "have it all together" as a QB, or it doesn't mean much. And that only comes with more time in the system. Guys like Barkley and Gilbert and Brantley even - great fundamentals, I am sure. But they struggled, whether due to youth or first year starting or whatever. And for Carnes to leapfrog an incumbent starter, he's going to be held to higher standards than a RFr in his position should be held to. Not a good situation for his growth.

The key thing is, having much better throwing fundamentals does not necessarily translate to much better production, in my opinion. The end product may be very different, but the process to go through has to be painful and be rife with mistakes. Of a different sort than Taylor's last year, to be sure, but costly mistakes nonetheless. Landry Jones is a very talented QB, but took plenty of lumps in his first year starting, in spite of his ability.

 
Hujan said:
But the one major difference between Martinez and Carnes is that Carnes clearly has the ability to improvise. Martinez has two modes: Stand in pocket and survey the field, or take off on a designed run.
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This is an exceptional analysis of Taylor's game.... except for the fact that this is completely untrue.

We saw Taylor survey the field on a pass play, find zero open receivers, and take off on the run in his first series in the Spring Game. Let's just ignore the fact that he did this, oh... I don't know, maybe 20 times last season, but just saying that in the most recent time we saw Martinez play, even a scrimmage, he did exactly what you say he's not capable of doing.

He also ran for a first down on that play.

How did you miss that? :dunno

 
Is that different from what Hujan was saying? Granted, I'm not sure I buy the "Brion is good at improvising" argument, or even whether this is an important part of a QB's game.

I actually prefer QBs who play within a system than QBs who improvise aimlessly. I don't have anything to go on for the Spring Game other than highlights, but the lasting memories I have of Taylor's improvisation is him deciding to chuck it into the endzone against Oklahoma, or him flipping it underhand to Washington defenders, in the Holiday Bowl.

There's a difference between playing within the system - deciding when to run and when to throw - and making things happen when plays break down. IMO, when plays break down, you have to play it safe and have a "live to run another play" philosophy.

 
BIG ERN said:
IT factor

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Have you watched Tmart's highschool highlights? Equally, if not more impressive against what could be argued as better competition.

IT factor in high school does NOT equate to the IT factor in college games....

Taylor Martinez has won 10 games as a college player. Brion Carnes has won 0. That's gonna play into the decision making process, no doubt about it.

 
Equally, if not more impressive
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Not in the throws he makes and it isn't close, I think.



I get your point that everyone's HS film is impressive. But if you want to focus on each QB's throwing ability, I don't think there's too much of a question here.

 
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knapplc said:
Hujan said:
But the one major difference between Martinez and Carnes is that Carnes clearly has the ability to improvise. Martinez has two modes: Stand in pocket and survey the field, or take off on a designed run.
Click to expand...
This is an exceptional analysis of Taylor's game.... except for the fact that this is completely untrue.

We saw Taylor survey the field on a pass play, find zero open receivers, and take off on the run in his first series in the Spring Game. Let's just ignore the fact that he did this, oh... I don't know, maybe 20 times last season, but just saying that in the most recent time we saw Martinez play, even a scrimmage, he did exactly what you say he's not capable of doing.

He also ran for a first down on that play.

How did you miss that? :dunno
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You just repeated what I said. At any given moment Martinez is either (1) standing in the pocket surveying the field, or (2) scrambling on a dedicated run. And yes, I mean that both can take place during the same play. But once he's made the transition from one, he seems incapable of going back to the other.

Carnes, meanwhile, will stand in the pocket and survey, find nothing open, roll out, stand and survey, roll out some more, then find a target and hit it or scramble. He is constantly scanning and trying to make a play.

Point being, I can't remember a time I saw Martinez roll out and then pull up and make a throw instead of continuing to run. The only exception might be those odd shovel pass things we saw in the Holiday Bowl.

 
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