Alabama State Patrol and Confederate flag

[carlfense]

I recently had a run-in with an outstanding young member of the Alabama State Patrol. (no ticket!) This gentleman had a Confederate flag tattooed prominently on the top of his forearm. Because the State Patrol wears short sleeved shirts it was clearly visible while he was in uniform.

 

I'm all for freedom of speech . . . but when an agent of the state displays a symbol so commonly associated with racism wouldn't this cause apprehension for some?! I'm not suggesting no one should be allowed to display Confederate flags, it just seems wrong when it is displayed by someone wielding the power of the state. It really is a whole other country down there.

 

What are your thoughts?

[BIGREDIOWAN]

Obviously, if the tattoo can be considered offensive it should be covered up by either a flesh colored patch/tape or with a long sleeve uniform. I personally have a tattoo on my left arm that comes down just under a short sleeve uniform. However, it is a tattoo in memory of a fallen police officer and is just his boots, rifle, and SWAT helmet along with our SWAT pin so it's not on the same level IMO. Problem is if you do it for one you have to do it for all. A few of the departments in my area have begun to restrict officers to long sleeves only due to tattoo's. I don't see that happening at our department, but I guess anything is possible.

[carlfense]

Obviously, if the tattoo can be considered offensive it should be covered up by either a flesh colored patch/tape or with a long sleeve uniform. I personally have a tattoo on my left arm that comes down just under a short sleeve uniform. However, it is a tattoo in memory of a fallen police officer and is just his boots, rifle, and SWAT helmet along with our SWAT pin so it's not on the same level IMO. Problem is if you do it for one you have to do it for all. A few of the departments in my area have begun to restrict officers to long sleeves only due to tattoo's. I don't see that happening at our department, but I guess anything is possible.

 

I can see your point. I have no problem with tattoos, it was just the content of this one that raised my eyebrows. I imagine there is a line somewhere...I don't think they'd allow racial slur or obscene tattoos to be visible. Apparently the flag tattoo is on the allowable side of the line.

 

Thanks for the input, particularly since you have some firsthand knowledge here!

[Vince from ShamWOW]

The conderate flag is a symbol of many things to many people. Where some consider it a form or racism, others don't.

[carlfense]

The conderate flag is a symbol of many things to many people. Where some consider it a form or racism, others don't.

 

As something of a civil war buff I completely understand that. I even agree with it to some extent. I'd guess that nearly any black person would consider it a symbol of racism, nearly as much so as a pointy white hat.

 

I think everyone would agree that it is controversial at best . . . and there is a simple solution. Have him cover it while on duty. Let him display it with pride while not in uniform.

[T_O_Bull]

Interesting discussion. The whole I hate what you say but defend your right to say it is a tough one especially when you bring the KKK and Neo-Nazi's to the table. Also when you mentioned that it was a whole different country down there you reminded me that if you were to think of the size of Europe and the many countries there and the size of our country in comparrison we could be any number of different countries. I personally don't think the tatoo of the stars and bars is something that I would do, far too many things can be taken wrong through assumption by those that see it. I some times think the world might be better off if we were all blind for a couple of decades and then suddenly had our sight restored. I think we would be incredibly surprised by who we were standing next too and spending our time with.

T_O_B

[carlfense]

Interesting discussion. The whole I hate what you say but defend your right to say it is a tough one especially when you bring the KKK and Neo-Nazi's to the table. Also when you mentioned that it was a whole different country down there you reminded me that if you were to think of the size of Europe and the many countries there and the size of our country in comparrison we could be any number of different countries. I personally don't think the tatoo of the stars and bars is something that I would do, far too many things can be taken wrong through assumption by those that see it. I some times think the world might be better off if we were all blind for a couple of decades and then suddenly had our sight restored. I think we would be incredibly surprised by who we were standing next too and spending our time with.

T_O_B

 

Excellent, excellent post. And good point about the size of the US vs. European countries. It's probably much easier to have striking philosophical differences over vast physical distances (but this might be mitigated somewhat by technology...)

[killer cacti]

As a southern resident of Huskerboard, I'd like to chime in and give you my 2 cents.

 

One hundred & forty-four years ago (1865), the Confederate Battle Flag was not viewed as a racist symbol. It was what was to be the representation of a new country known as the Confederate States of America. Sometime in the past 144 years, it has been brought to the forefront of racist movements by ignorant people who choose to display the flag improperly. It's the people who can't see past their racist forefather's beliefs that all men are not created equal who make the display the flag in support of their racist beliefs. Because of this ignorant display, civil rights movement groups have grown to view the flag as racist, and that view has spread across the country.

 

I do not have any relatives who fought for the C.S.A. or U.S.A. in the civil war, as my family had not crossed the pond yet, nor am I African American, so I feel that I am an unbiased person who is right in the middle of it all. Please don't think that because I'm white that I am obliged to be biased to the flag.

 

I live in a state that flew the Confederate Battle Flag over the statehouse until 1998 or 1999. It is now still on the statehouse grounds at the Civil War Memorial, and activist groups are still fighting to get it removed because there is this view now that the flag is 'racist.' To them I say, face the facts, it is part of the history of the state. There is a memorial bearing the flag on the statehouse grounds. We don't tear down a statue of someone after they die, because they are still part of the history. Some activist groups go WAY too far. Next thing they will be trying to remove the CBF (Confederate Battle Flag) from the history books that we teach our children.

 

On the other hand, why are southern states so proud of a flag that was flown during a war that was lost? I can understand having some paraphernalia if family of yours fought in the Civil War for the C.S.A., hell, I'd even love to have some authentic Civil war materials (flags, bullets, anything) from either side, not as a fan of either side, but as a history buff. But to display the flag in public, have stickers all over their car, fly a flag from their car (seen it in SC... ), wear clothes bearing the CBF, is just despicable. All of these people are just trying to stir things up, not pride for your ancestors. So to these people, I say, if you are proud of your ancestors fighting for what they believed in, show them some honor & dignity by keeping this display to yourselves. Do what you want in your own house, but in public, show some respect to your family, yourself, and your fellow countrymen (& women).

 

Lastly, I want to share that the church that I attend was built in the 1850's. Being in the heart of SC, many of the founding members of our church fought for the C.S.A. in the Civil War. Many of those men died fighting for what they believed in. They are buried in our church cemetary. Each of these graves are marked with a small CBF, just as those who fought for the US have the stars & stripes flying above their grave. This has never been an issue for any members or visitors, and to my knowledge has never even been brought up. There is even a predominantly African American church down the road who frequently gets together with our church for community functions. Still, nothing has been said.

 

My point is, if a person going to display the CBF in any way, shape, or form, don't do it to cause a controversy. Show some class, dignity, respect, & honor to anyone who fought for it, against it, are descendants of either side, and equally as important, anyone who is a citizen of the United States of America, because, like it or not, whether northern or southern, yankee or rebel, we are all Americans.

 

I'm off. Thank you for listening.

[carlfense]

As a southern resident of Huskerboard, I'd like to chime in and give you my 2 cents.

 

One hundred & forty-four years ago (1865), the Confederate Battle Flag was not viewed as a racist symbol. It was what was to be the representation of a new country known as the Confederate States of America. Sometime in the past 144 years, it has been brought to the forefront of racist movements by ignorant people who choose to display the flag improperly. It's the people who can't see past their racist forefather's beliefs that all men are not created equal who make the display the flag in support of their racist beliefs. Because of this ignorant display, civil rights movement groups have grown to view the flag as racist, and that view has spread across the country.

 

I do not have any relatives who fought for the C.S.A. or U.S.A. in the civil war, as my family had not crossed the pond yet, nor am I African American, so I feel that I am an unbiased person who is right in the middle of it all. Please don't think that because I'm white that I am obliged to be biased to the flag.

 

I live in a state that flew the Confederate Battle Flag over the statehouse until 1998 or 1999. It is now still on the statehouse grounds at the Civil War Memorial, and activist groups are still fighting to get it removed because there is this view now that the flag is 'racist.' To them I say, face the facts, it is part of the history of the state. There is a memorial bearing the flag on the statehouse grounds. We don't tear down a statue of someone after they die, because they are still part of the history. Some activist groups go WAY too far. Next thing they will be trying to remove the CBF (Confederate Battle Flag) from the history books that we teach our children.

 

On the other hand, why are southern states so proud of a flag that was flown during a war that was lost? I can understand having some paraphernalia if family of yours fought in the Civil War for the C.S.A., hell, I'd even love to have some authentic Civil war materials (flags, bullets, anything) from either side, not as a fan of either side, but as a history buff. But to display the flag in public, have stickers all over their car, fly a flag from their car (seen it in SC... ), wear clothes bearing the CBF, is just despicable. All of these people are just trying to stir things up, not pride for your ancestors. So to these people, I say, if you are proud of your ancestors fighting for what they believed in, show them some honor & dignity by keeping this display to yourselves. Do what you want in your own house, but in public, show some respect to your family, yourself, and your fellow countrymen (& women).

 

Lastly, I want to share that the church that I attend was built in the 1850's. Being in the heart of SC, many of the founding members of our church fought for the C.S.A. in the Civil War. Many of those men died fighting for what they believed in. They are buried in our church cemetary. Each of these graves are marked with a small CBF, just as those who fought for the US have the stars & stripes flying above their grave. This has never been an issue for any members or visitors, and to my knowledge has never even been brought up. There is even a predominantly African American church down the road who frequently gets together with our church for community functions. Still, nothing has been said.

 

My point is, if a person going to display the CBF in any way, shape, or form, don't do it to cause a controversy. Show some class, dignity, respect, & honor to anyone who fought for it, against it, are descendants of either side, and equally as important, anyone who is a citizen of the United States of America, because, like it or not, whether northern or southern, yankee or rebel, we are all Americans.

 

I'm off. Thank you for listening.

 

Thanks for your input. Fresh perspectives are . . . well . . . refreshing I guess.

 

I don't want to see the Confederate battle flag banned in any way, or scrubbed from the history books. My only concern here was that is was so prominently displayed on some one who is a state law enforcement figure. If there is one group of people (outside of the courtroom) who should appear to be as impartial as possible, it is law enforcement officials. Displaying that tattoo while in uniform could raise serious doubts about impartiality.

 

(Also...as a side note...I realize that many people don't believe the CBF to be a symbol of racism. I'm not sure I can agree with that. The CBF does represent the Confederate States of America, but slavery was an inextricable element of that government and time. Many southerners will argue that the Civil War was a war for states rights...which is correct. However, chief among those rights fought for was the right to own slaves. Anyways, sorry for ranting a bit myself.)

 

Thanks again for discussing. Nothing like a little history to get things fired up.

[killer cacti]

Thanks for your input. Fresh perspectives are . . . well . . . refreshing I guess.

 

I don't want to see the Confederate battle flag banned in any way, or scrubbed from the history books. My only concern here was that is was so prominently displayed on some one who is a state law enforcement figure. If there is one group of people (outside of the courtroom) who should appear to be as impartial as possible, it is law enforcement officials. Displaying that tattoo while in uniform could raise serious doubts about impartiality.

Totally agree, as a member of the state law enforcement, or any law enforcement for that matter should be forced to cover it up.

[tattooedhusker]

I agree with you Carl...everything else has already been said.

[huskertim]

I'm a bit of a history buff myself, so I've tried to understand the Civil War as more than a racial battle. I get southern pride, and comend the convictions of south not to be under the thumb of northern industrialist of the time.

 

That said, it isn't 1865 anymore. Displaying the stars and bars has a racial undertone in todays world, and eveyone knows it. I refuse to accept that you interpet it diffently so it's ok in your mind. Perception is reallity and if everyone around you preceives this as racist, and you certainly know this, aren't you then speaking directly to that.

 

I know a guy at work who wears an upsidedown cross earring and has the same tatoos. Am I to beleive that he is expressing some enlightened viewpoint that I must repect and annalyze, or should I simply assume that guy is trying to start some @#$! and get that attention that his momy denied him going up.

Bottom line, symbols, like words, have meaning. What you say (show) is probably what you mean. Man up and acknowledge.

[carlfense]

I'm a bit of a history buff myself, so I've tried to understand the Civil War as more than a racial battle. I get southern pride, and comend the convictions of south not to be under the thumb of northern industrialist of the time.

 

That said, it isn't 1865 anymore. Displaying the stars and bars has a racial undertone in todays world, and eveyone knows it. I refuse to accept that you interpet it diffently so it's ok in your mind. Perception is reallity and if everyone around you preceives this as racist, and you certainly know this, aren't you then speaking directly to that.

 

I know a guy at work who wears an upsidedown cross earring and has the same tatoos. Am I to beleive that he is expressing some enlightened viewpoint that I must repect and annalyze, or should I simply assume that guy is trying to start some @#$! and get that attention that his momy denied him going up.

Bottom line, symbols, like words, have meaning. What you say (show) is probably what you mean. Man up and acknowledge.

 

Well said. As much as it's possible to simply convey on a message board, what is your take on the causes of the Civil War? Mine is that slavery was the root cause, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a war fought over racism. Quite the contrary actually, both sides were almost equally racist. It was more a war over the economic impact of slavery, and the disastrous consequence for the south if it were abolished. Granted, the average young and poor Johnny Reb thought that he was fighting for his rights (and he owned no slaves) but the people with power appear far more concerned about preserving the economic boon provided by slave labor than some intangible idea of states rights.

 

Wow. I apologize for the detour. Somehow a traffic stop ends up in a discussion about the causes of the civil war...interesting. Glad to find some fellow history buffs on here.

[carlfense]

I'm a bit of a history buff myself, so I've tried to understand the Civil War as more than a racial battle. I get southern pride, and comend the convictions of south not to be under the thumb of northern industrialist of the time.

 

That said, it isn't 1865 anymore. Displaying the stars and bars has a racial undertone in todays world, and eveyone knows it. I refuse to accept that you interpet it diffently so it's ok in your mind. Perception is reallity and if everyone around you preceives this as racist, and you certainly know this, aren't you then speaking directly to that.

 

I know a guy at work who wears an upsidedown cross earring and has the same tatoos. Am I to beleive that he is expressing some enlightened viewpoint that I must repect and annalyze, or should I simply assume that guy is trying to start some @#$! and get that attention that his momy denied him going up.

Bottom line, symbols, like words, have meaning. What you say (show) is probably what you mean. Man up and acknowledge.

 

Also, I agree with the sentiment that many times those people are just trying to stir the pot. Much like the gothic crowd who like to express individuality by dressing exactly like their friends.

[killer cacti]

That said, it isn't 1865 anymore. Displaying the stars and bars has a racial undertone in todays world, and eveyone knows it.

 

So do you feel that by having the Confederate Battle Flag on statehouse grounds at a Civil War memorial makes us a racist state?