Hujan
Starter
Thanks, knappic. And I don't even need to tell you the feeling is mutual. You know your 'ball, that's for sure.
Postmortem: Nebraska's Offense, Full Circle
- Thread starter TheCheshireCat
- Start date
Hujan
Starter
Wow, where to begin. First: I'm flattered that you'd ask. Second: Earmuffs, Zoogies. This is going to get ugly. (Kidding, of course; you know I e-love you.) I have mentioned these points elsewhere, but will address some here.
My chief complaint is that the offense did not appear to be designed to account for Martinez's weaknesses. To refresh, the best thing about Martinez---particularly at this stage in his development---is the raw physical tools he brings to the table. Obviously, that's his incredible top end speed and acceleration. He has an amazing top gear and gets there fast. But a thinking man's QB he is not. He is not going to make the pre-snap reads, work through progressions, etc. And he looks uncomfortable in the pocket. In short, he has almost no ability to manage a pass rush and is therefore far from an ideal pocket passer.
What you do with a QB like that, IMO, is to simplify the passing game for him as much as possible. You hear this all the time from commentators when there is a freshman QB making his first start or a backup QB comes in the game: "They'll probably work some short routes and some screens so X can build up his confidence."
In my view, this means that his throws should primarily consist of the following:
- HB Screens
- WR Screens
- Bootleg playaction passes
- Bootleg passes w/ a run-pass option
- Conventional playaction passes to a streaking, hot-route deepthreat (e.g., Reed)
- Quick slants
In the first two throws, Martinez can anticipate the pass rush (since that is the point of the screen) and the throws could not be simpler. In the third and fourth throws, Martinez will be out of the pocket and in space where he should be more comfortable and is a threat to run with the ball, preventing LBs from jumping the underneath routes. If the receivers are covered downfield, he can tuck it and run. Since he'll already be on the move as he rolls out, he will be deadly to turn every play into a 5-7 yard gain. And since he'll be rolling to the sideline, chances are good he'll be able to pick up some non-contact yards by getting to the edge and then out of bounds before taking contact. This is important for his longevity. Terrell Pryor does this all the time when the pass is not there. It's basically free yards.
Only in the fifth and sixth throws will Martinez actually be expected to stay in the pocket and make throws. But in both cases, Martinez should be taught to look for the hot route, then to the RB, and if neither is there, to simply throw it away. Similarly, with the quick slant, it is a short drop and the throw is either there or he throws it away or tries to improvise a run. If the offense depends on his ability to make reads, it's not going to work. If you count on and design around his inability to make reads, we'll be good to go.
Relatedly, I think the coaches did a poor job of making the running backs available for Martinez to dump off to if no one was open. A QB who doesn't manage the pass rush well needs that safety valve. How many times did we watch Sam Keller drop the ball off to Marlon Lucky? Keller might have done it a bit too much, but even so, it's far better than a sack, let alone a sack-fumble.
If I had a thesis for the above, it would be: Make the passing game as simple as possible for Martinez. In my view, this was the single greatest problem with our offense this year. In our last three losses (A&M, OU, and Washington) we got killed because we could not effectively manage the pass rush. It ain't going to happen by propping Martinez up in the pocket and expecting him to make throws.
My next biggest gripe really is that we are too predictable in play calling. It seemed like Watson had an absolute aversion to passing on first down. It's fine if you want to spend most of your first downs running the ball, but only if you intend to mix in a play action at some point on first down. Otherwise, the other team just loads the box on first and 10 and then you're looking at 2nd and 10 or, worse, 2nd and 12. The name of the game is to keep the other team guessing, obviously.
Lastly, I think our team would have done better to use more of an up-tempo offense. If we want to run the spread-option offense, I think it can only be done if you intend to go up tempo. The only real reason to deliberately go with a slow offense is if you (1) have a poor defense that you need to keep of the field, and/or (2) use a power running game, in which case there is really no deception to be had. Otherwise, an ideal combination is a spread-option, up-tempo offense that is content to get 5-7 yards per play, but will simply run many, many plays. A defense's ability to cope with misdirection, zone-reads, and other things designed to confuse them becomes all the more insurmountable when it is run at a fast pace. And if we rely on smaller, faster players, the bigger, slower defenses in the Big Ten will be gassed.
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Ok, thanks for posting that. I had been reading your arguments for a couple weeks but never really knew what you actually thought the problem or the solution was.
I'm not sure they should simplify the passing game so much as change it. This year it seemed they were still running a west coast passing offense that didn't play off the strengths of the spread option running game. They did use playaction off the zone read, which was where we found most of our success through the air, but there are so many more variations of it that we could run; using run/pass options like Michigan did with Robinson was completely absent from our playbook this year.
As far as managing the pass rush, having Martinez healthy again is going to help with that. With Martinez hurt, defenses didn't have to stay disciplined with their pass rush, they could just go full-speed, and the pass defense didn't have to respect Martinez's ability to scramble. Martinez isn't a pocket passer to begin with, but when he's healthy, the defense has to respect the run so much that holes open up in the secondary and the pass rush slows down. I think there are some things you bring up that should have been implemented in 2010, but I think they should have been adjustments following Martinez's injury, and not a complete overhaul of our scheme for the future.
As far as your suggestions not specifically related to the passing game: I think the up-tempo offense is a long term goal for us, but expecting it right away with a freshman QB is expecting a lot, especially considering we still had seniors like Mike McNeill who still couldn't execute their own simple blocking assignment. When an entire offense executes poorly in the no-huddle, you simply go nowhere really fast. At least we tried to drain some clock when we went three and out... :facepalm:
I was also frustrated with playcalling throughout the year. It doesn't seem like Watson knows how to set up opponents over a sequence of playcalls like Chip Kelly or Rich Rodriguez do, but Watson also isn't a spread option guy. It looks like he's sticking around for at least one more year, so I can only hope he gets better at it.
Anyways, while I do believe that we'd be better off changing to a spread option passing game and leaving most of our west coast passing game behind, I also think that it's easy to overreact to how this season ended. I don't think that mistakes made by a freshman QB who was playing hurt is a sign of a weak system, but the sign of weak depth, and I still think that if Martinez stays healthy, there's a very good chance that we beat both A&M and OU, and get an easy win over UConn in the Fiesta Bowl to finish a healthy 13-1. There wouldn't be much complaining going on if that were the case...
I'm not sure they should simplify the passing game so much as change it. This year it seemed they were still running a west coast passing offense that didn't play off the strengths of the spread option running game. They did use playaction off the zone read, which was where we found most of our success through the air, but there are so many more variations of it that we could run; using run/pass options like Michigan did with Robinson was completely absent from our playbook this year.
As far as managing the pass rush, having Martinez healthy again is going to help with that. With Martinez hurt, defenses didn't have to stay disciplined with their pass rush, they could just go full-speed, and the pass defense didn't have to respect Martinez's ability to scramble. Martinez isn't a pocket passer to begin with, but when he's healthy, the defense has to respect the run so much that holes open up in the secondary and the pass rush slows down. I think there are some things you bring up that should have been implemented in 2010, but I think they should have been adjustments following Martinez's injury, and not a complete overhaul of our scheme for the future.
As far as your suggestions not specifically related to the passing game: I think the up-tempo offense is a long term goal for us, but expecting it right away with a freshman QB is expecting a lot, especially considering we still had seniors like Mike McNeill who still couldn't execute their own simple blocking assignment. When an entire offense executes poorly in the no-huddle, you simply go nowhere really fast. At least we tried to drain some clock when we went three and out... :facepalm:
I was also frustrated with playcalling throughout the year. It doesn't seem like Watson knows how to set up opponents over a sequence of playcalls like Chip Kelly or Rich Rodriguez do, but Watson also isn't a spread option guy. It looks like he's sticking around for at least one more year, so I can only hope he gets better at it.
Anyways, while I do believe that we'd be better off changing to a spread option passing game and leaving most of our west coast passing game behind, I also think that it's easy to overreact to how this season ended. I don't think that mistakes made by a freshman QB who was playing hurt is a sign of a weak system, but the sign of weak depth, and I still think that if Martinez stays healthy, there's a very good chance that we beat both A&M and OU, and get an easy win over UConn in the Fiesta Bowl to finish a healthy 13-1. There wouldn't be much complaining going on if that were the case...
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bshirt
Banned
I think that is a very good point that's needs to be emphasized. A healthy Tmart makes a HUGE difference in how a defense play us. As you say, with a bad ankle and turf toe they simply teed off with zero worries of him blasting by them with 40+ yd scorchers.
The upside is that with the dual threat qbs coming in an injury to Tmart will not be as devastating. Still will hurt but it shouldn't be 2009 again. Thank God.
The downside is that if we keep SW, Gilmore & Barney we'll never adapt well to changing game conditions and we're essentially having our offense play with one hand tied behind its back.
Hujan
Starter
True. The one criticism I have of the zone-read---or the playaction off the zone-read---is that it (1) takes a long time to develop, and (2) requires the QB to be standing still during that time. The conventional playaction is desireable because it involves the QB moving backward as the handoff is faked, thus mirroring the drop back that provides the QB with some separation from the pass rush. But by the time the zone-read aspect is complete, the pass rush will already be on top of Martinez, forcing him to make a throw under duress. This is avoided if you rely on a conventional playaction or, better, yet a conventional playaction to bootleg. I am telling you, if they roll Martinez out, he will be deadly.
This is where we might disagree a little bit. There are two possibilities: Your view is that opposing defenses, seizing on Martinez's injury, licked their chops and felt encouraged to rush because they knew he was no longer a running threat. The other view is that opposing defenses, watching Martinez melt in the face of any kind of pass rush, felt encouraged to bring the heat on every play.
Now as you consider these two possibilities, let me point out one thing: Cody Green is certainly no where near the running threat of Martinez, and probably isn't even as much of a running threat as an injured Martinez. But all of sudden we put him in the game and Washington's pass rush seems to slow down, or at least doesn't seem to faze Cody. Many, many teams have QBs without anything approaching Martinez's mobility and yet you don't see them taking blitzes on virtually every down.
Now ask yourself: Do you think there was any kind of cause-and-effect relationship between Martinez's hapless performance in the face of OU's pass rush in the CCG and UW's game plan in the Holiday Bow? And if you are a DC going into next season, you are going to bring the heat on Martinez again until he can prove that he can effectively manage it. Healthy or not, the read on Martinez is that he panics in the pocket and is a liability in the face of a blitz. If I'm an opposing defense, I am going to blitz on every down and see what happens. There is at least a 50/50 chance he panics and makes a bad pass for a pick, fumbles, or takes a 9-yard sack. You'd be stupid NOT to.
Consider also that his ability to manage the pocket seemed to get worse between the OU and UW games, and yet he'd had almost a month off to rest his ankle. I mean, honestly, are we even sure that Martinez wasn't close to 100% by the Holiday Bowl?
And frankly, I'm not sure that a good run game keeps a pass rush at bay. Defenders in the backfield is disruptive to a pass and run game just the same. The only thing I can think of to slow down that kind of pass rush is to throw over it (i.e., a screen). We didn't throw a single one in the game.
This is where I feel like some of us need a reality check. Yes, we had a freshman QB who was playing injured. And yes those things are not helpful. But for crying out loud, WE WEREN'T EVEN CLOSE. We scored 1 TD against UW. No offensive TDs against Texas. No offensive TDs against A&M.
I mean, c'mon for crying out loud. The excuses I keep hearing---injury, freshman QB---might explain why we weren't a top 10 offense. But those excuses aren't enough to explain why we were absolutely pathetic on offense down the stretch. Throw out the early season numbers. We were HORRIBLE on offense many, many times this year. Admit it: You winced everytime the offense took the field and were just praying we wouldn't turn it over deep in our own territory. There is a TREMENDOUS gap between "totally anemic" and "dominant," and Martinez's youth and injury are not enough to bridge that gap. Not even close.
zoogs
Assistant Coach
No no no no Martinez will not be deadly if asked to do roll-out passes! :ahhhhhhhh :madash
e-love you too, Hujan
This isn't my opinion really, going on what others I would trust to know much better than me have been saying (whether or not they support Taylor), as far as rolling out and screen passes go. Unless something really changes with his skillset. Well, anything's *possible.*
A QB that can throw on the run is deadly and I think that's a big reason why many are excited about Brion.
e-love you too, Hujan
This isn't my opinion really, going on what others I would trust to know much better than me have been saying (whether or not they support Taylor), as far as rolling out and screen passes go. Unless something really changes with his skillset. Well, anything's *possible.*
A QB that can throw on the run is deadly and I think that's a big reason why many are excited about Brion.
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If you watch the playaction passes run by Oregon and Michigan, they do get their QB out of the pocket. The QB fakes the handoff, then rolls out left or right like they would if they were going to run on the zone read, and they have the option of taking off or of throwing it - they're effectively reading whether the cornerback or safety is crashing down on the run, or staying in pass coverage. But the QB is out of the pocket. I've also seen both of those teams run it where it is actually built for just 5-10 yard gains, and it develops pretty quickly.
As far as the pass rush - the fake handoff in the shotgun doesn't take any more time than faking a handoff as you're moving back from center, and in the shotgun you've already got distance between you and the pass rush. You basically just indicted any playaction pass that happens out of the shotgun as being less effective than from under center, but what makes playaction passes effective is setting them up so the defense thinks you're going to run. The only reason the formation matters is because you want the defense to think run. If you want the defense to think zone-read, you better look like you're running zone-read, and not line up under center.
Of course teams saw that Martinez was vulnerable in the pocket, but that only mattered after he was injured. Any below-average football fan can see that Martinez is a below-average passer who struggles in the pocket, but any below-average football fan could also see him lighting up defenses before he got hurt. The truth of the matter is that with Martinez hurt and in the game, all he could do was hand the ball off or pass. The option game was gone, the QB scramble game was gone. All you had to do was contain the edges and blitz up the middle, and our offense would fold, because without Martinez, Roy Helu and Rex Burkhead suddenly looked very average, and Martinez is just a sitting duck in the pocket.
You take away Martinez's legs, you take away his game. Saying that he's bad in the pocket, which is what you're doing, is just stating the obvious. But when he is healthy, his legs make up for that on an individual basis and in our system, and he didn't have his legs for the entire second half of the season. Throwing that plain and simple fact out in favor of, "Well, defenses just figured out what to do," is completely insane.
Michael Jordan could smoke me in a one-on-one game, piece of cake. He'd run circles around me, dunk, and I'd probably just try to shoot 3 pointers the whole time in order to ensure I at least got a shot off. However, a couple months later, MJ breaks his leg, and we play again, this time with MJ in a wheelchair, and this time I win. Now did I win because I learned on film that if I drive hard to the basket around MJ and defend his jumpshot aggressively that he's beatable? Or did I win because he was in a frickin wheelchair?
You can talk about SDSU and Texas if you want, you really think their defenses are that much better than Oklahoma State and Missouri? They both had the Texas tape, they knew what to do, they tried to do it, but Watson adjusted and Martinez developed. Washington didn't lose to us in game 1 because they didn't realize that all they had to do was blitz Martinez. They lost because Martinez was running circles around them. In Game 2, Martinez couldn't run circles around them, so all they had to do was stop Helu/Burkhead and watch Martinez flounder in the pocket.
Is Martinez a pocket passer? Absolutely not, and he's never going to be. But in our system, he doesn't need to be and to grade him on that curve simply doesn't make sense, it's out of context.
Here's what I'd say:
SDSU: Didn't see the game, but understand Martinez generally tried to do too much and limited himself as a result. Without him producing, Helu and Burkhead disappear, as do the receivers for obvious reason. Bad game for a healthy Martinez.
Texas: Muschamp sells out to stop the run, bringing 9 anytime we show zone read. As a result, receivers are running completely wide open. The ball is thrown, hits them in the hands, and falls to the turf. What do you want from Martinez there? Or from Watson, for that matter?
Texas A&M: Martinez starts, gets a field goal on his first drive, and then gets re-injured. The rest of the game, we can't run the zone read option, the play our offense is built around. Martinez can't scramble from the pocket, and he's a poor pocket passer. When Martinez can't produce, see SDSU game.
Oklahoma: See Texas A&M game.
Washington: See Oklahoma game.
Saying that starting a freshman QB who is also injured might be reason for an offense not to finish in the top 10 is crazy. How many offenses do you know of that finish in the top 10 with a freshman QB? In 2010, there were none, not even one with a healthy freshman QB.
When it comes to winning national championships you need to get lucky, and a big part of that is keeping your QB healthy. Darron Thomas, Cam Newton, Greg McElroy, Colt McCoy, Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, etc etc. You're not going to lose your starting QB and stay in the race unless you have Brook Berringer as a backup, which we don't have right now. Martinez went down and that crippled our offense as much as 2008 Oklahoma was crippled by losing Sam Bradford. Thinking that those offenses should just plow straight ahead without so much as a blip simply isn't realistic.
Like I said, there are adjustments that need to be made with our offense, and player development that needs to happen, but right now people have lost perspective and are overreacting.
Zoogies, seriously... You are the only person I've seen who says Martinez shouldn't be rolled out of the pocket.No no no no Martinez will not be deadly if asked to do roll-out passes! :ahhhhhhhh :madash
e-love you too, Hujan
This isn't my opinion really, going on what others I would trust to know much better than me have been saying (whether or not they support Taylor), as far as rolling out and screen passes go. Unless something really changes with his skillset. Well, anything's *possible.*
A QB that can throw on the run is deadly and I think that's a big reason why many are excited about Brion.
zoogs
Assistant Coach
I think pretty much all of the respected posters over at HI say the same thing. And I don't think I am the only one here either. Maybe they're all wrong, but I'll take their opinion over my random guess. Without it, I may have thought faster QB = better at rollouts too, but the mechanics and decision making that go into it are actually more than sitting back in the shotgun and making quick one read passes. Like the quick slants, for example, which is what we were reduced to running with Taylor for pass plays in the CCG with literally no other alternative.
Not to mention the completely separate 'injured Taylor' discussion; based on this past year, the time period where Taylor was truly ineffective was also the time where his lateral movement was trashed anyways.
I think there are two camps here really. Some look at Taylor's athletic ability and make inferences on what he can do, and others rely on reports about what Taylor's specific skillset encompasses. The former is what we have to go on usually for anyone, but I think when info on the latter is available, it supersedes the former. As another disclaimer though, a player's skillset is obviously a fluid situation, and one that can change greatly.
Not to mention the completely separate 'injured Taylor' discussion; based on this past year, the time period where Taylor was truly ineffective was also the time where his lateral movement was trashed anyways.
I think there are two camps here really. Some look at Taylor's athletic ability and make inferences on what he can do, and others rely on reports about what Taylor's specific skillset encompasses. The former is what we have to go on usually for anyone, but I think when info on the latter is available, it supersedes the former. As another disclaimer though, a player's skillset is obviously a fluid situation, and one that can change greatly.
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Hujan
Starter
Herc,
You make some good points in your post, which I won't quote in full.
About the zone-read play action, I am kind of surprised you are disputing this. I'm not sure I saw a game featuring Auburn or Oregon in which the announcers did NOT remark how their zone-read playaction is a slow-developing play. Which it is. Yes, based on the shotgun aspect they are several yards behind the line. But you've also got a brief moment where both the QB and RB are effectively standing still, then the QB has to come up to pass and take his drop back. In the conventional play action, the fake handoff occurs as the QB is taking his drop back and is therefore a little faster. How many times in the NCG did we see a pass rush collapse on both the QB and RB as they were doing the zone-read business? Couple times, if I recall correctly.
Regarding QBs, you didn't seem to address my comment about Cody Green or the other 80 QBs in Division I-A football who are simply limited to "passing or handing off" and yet who do not face blitzes on virtually every down.
Is it your position that the combination of Martinez's injury and his inability to manage the pocket are what made him an especial target for opposing defenses? I suppose I could accept that, but I would then submit something that we've talked about before, which is this: Martinez started with an ankle injury against Mizzou on a play that, frankly, did not seem like it should have lead to THAT devastating of an injury. He acquires an injury to his other foot in the A&M game and may at some point have picked up some turf toe in addition.
So in a four-game span, he accumulates anywhere from 2-3 injuries to his feet/ankles. He starts both the CCG and Washington game without any detectable limp, and yet, is seen limping at some point in both games, indicating that he aggravated those old injuries or acquired new ones. While I won't say that Martinez is "soft" you would have to agree that he's not exactly "durable." I would venture to say that you probably won't go a full season with Martinez (or really any scrambling QB) not acquiring some type of injury. And if, based on his lack of pocket management, an injury for Martinez means that our offense goes from 4-5 TDs a game to 0-1 TDs a game, then we had better get used to opposing Ds teeing off on him.
You make some good points in your post, which I won't quote in full.
About the zone-read play action, I am kind of surprised you are disputing this. I'm not sure I saw a game featuring Auburn or Oregon in which the announcers did NOT remark how their zone-read playaction is a slow-developing play. Which it is. Yes, based on the shotgun aspect they are several yards behind the line. But you've also got a brief moment where both the QB and RB are effectively standing still, then the QB has to come up to pass and take his drop back. In the conventional play action, the fake handoff occurs as the QB is taking his drop back and is therefore a little faster. How many times in the NCG did we see a pass rush collapse on both the QB and RB as they were doing the zone-read business? Couple times, if I recall correctly.
Regarding QBs, you didn't seem to address my comment about Cody Green or the other 80 QBs in Division I-A football who are simply limited to "passing or handing off" and yet who do not face blitzes on virtually every down.
Is it your position that the combination of Martinez's injury and his inability to manage the pocket are what made him an especial target for opposing defenses? I suppose I could accept that, but I would then submit something that we've talked about before, which is this: Martinez started with an ankle injury against Mizzou on a play that, frankly, did not seem like it should have lead to THAT devastating of an injury. He acquires an injury to his other foot in the A&M game and may at some point have picked up some turf toe in addition.
So in a four-game span, he accumulates anywhere from 2-3 injuries to his feet/ankles. He starts both the CCG and Washington game without any detectable limp, and yet, is seen limping at some point in both games, indicating that he aggravated those old injuries or acquired new ones. While I won't say that Martinez is "soft" you would have to agree that he's not exactly "durable." I would venture to say that you probably won't go a full season with Martinez (or really any scrambling QB) not acquiring some type of injury. And if, based on his lack of pocket management, an injury for Martinez means that our offense goes from 4-5 TDs a game to 0-1 TDs a game, then we had better get used to opposing Ds teeing off on him.
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Hujan
Starter
In fairness to Zoogies, I think he would agree that a Martinez who can throw on the run should definitely be rolled out of the pocket. I think the hangup is that he believes that Martinez lacks the ability to make throws on the run, thereby eliminating this option. (Don't let me put words in your mouth, Zoogies.)Zoogies, seriously... You are the only person I've seen who says Martinez shouldn't be rolled out of the pocket.No no no no Martinez will not be deadly if asked to do roll-out passes! :ahhhhhhhh :madash
e-love you too, Hujan
This isn't my opinion really, going on what others I would trust to know much better than me have been saying (whether or not they support Taylor), as far as rolling out and screen passes go. Unless something really changes with his skillset. Well, anything's *possible.*
A QB that can throw on the run is deadly and I think that's a big reason why many are excited about Brion.
I have no ability to confirm or deny this, though it would seem to address the question of why Watson did not include those plays for him. (There may be other explanations, too.)
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knapplc
International Man of Mystery
But this is to presume that the "reports" are accurate, and not clouded by preference, dislike, uninformed opinions, etc. We know that there are people who simply dislike certain players, or people who simply like this or that player more, and hitch their wagon to that player come hell or high water. Fanboys of Martinez are as guilty of that as fanboys of Green, Lee, Carnes, or any other QB or RB or WR in Nebraska history. I put very little stock in reports from "trusted sources" because quite often they're untrue, partial information, or biased.
I prefer to go by what I see with my own eyes, and I have yet to see Carnes play.
zoogs
Assistant Coach
Hujan, that's exactly right.
Knapp, that's right too. That's why I frame all of this in a 'well, they might be wrong.' I could trust my own eyes, but I can't really evaluate a QB's skillset and I don't think I watch carefully enough. I can pull out an example of Taylor making a horrendous throw on the run (the pick against OU), but I couldn't give you any sort of detailed breakdown on the guy's skills. And certainly, bias/incomplete information is at play here. But they were not wrong about one thing, that Taylor was streaky and would give you some huge plays followed by some complete dead streaks. Or that Zac has athleticism and is the best passer on the team. Or that Taylor has incredible explosion and is one of the biggest playmaking threats on the team.
The stuff on Carnes comes from his film really, which is pretty impressive, at least to my untrained eyes. But others have the same opinion of it. He makes some really big boy throws, on the run.
Knapp, that's right too. That's why I frame all of this in a 'well, they might be wrong.' I could trust my own eyes, but I can't really evaluate a QB's skillset and I don't think I watch carefully enough. I can pull out an example of Taylor making a horrendous throw on the run (the pick against OU), but I couldn't give you any sort of detailed breakdown on the guy's skills. And certainly, bias/incomplete information is at play here. But they were not wrong about one thing, that Taylor was streaky and would give you some huge plays followed by some complete dead streaks. Or that Zac has athleticism and is the best passer on the team. Or that Taylor has incredible explosion and is one of the biggest playmaking threats on the team.
The stuff on Carnes comes from his film really, which is pretty impressive, at least to my untrained eyes. But others have the same opinion of it. He makes some really big boy throws, on the run.
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knapplc
International Man of Mystery
In the end it's your opinion I want, though. If I wanted Joe Schmoe's opinion from HI I'd go to HI and get it. I'd put your "record" up against anyone from HI's any day. Or mine, or Hujan's or anyone else's. Everyone has opinions, whether those opinions are that Martinez would be streaky (my opinion from day one, as well as yours and several others'), or that Lee has athleticism (probably not debatable) or that he's the best passer on the team (very debatable), or that Martinez is explosive (also an opinion shared by you, me and everyone else who watched the Spring Game and W. Kentucky/Idaho/Washington).
I didn't address your comment about Cody Green because I would agree that Cody Green does have better pocket presence than Martinez. I'm by no means saying that Martinez has good pocket presence, or that his injury kept him from having good pocket presence. I'm saying that he made up for his poor pocket presence and his other shortfalls with his legs when he was healthy, and if you take away his running ability, he's just a bad pocket passer. So yes, I am saying it's a combination of his injury and his inability to manage the pocket that makes him a liability.
We don't need the kid to be Peyton Manning. If he becomes that, then great, but he's probably not going to. He's going to be something else, he's going to create plays and opportunities in a different way than NFL QB's do, and if you can't find a way to respect that, then you're not going to have much fun watching him. But taking away Martinez's legs and then criticizing his performance is like taking away Peyton Manning's arm and then criticizing his inability to make plays with his legs. That's not their game, it's not what they're built for, and Martinez struggled in part because we were asking him to do something he wasn't built for and that our system itself wasn't designed for. Did he struggle because of poor pocket presence - yes, but that only became our offense because he couldn't run.
As far as "durability," issues, Martinez got hit hard in the first 7 games as well as the last 7 games. It was only after his injury that he had injury problems, and most of the time it appeared he was simply re-aggravating his high ankle sprain. But we only really saw him get hurt once and then try to play hurt which obviously just led to getting hurt over and over again. Give the kid time to heal, and if he keeps having injury problems then obviously he has durability issues. I do think Martinez needs to put on some weight, but I also think it's too early to diagnose him as a guy will never be able to make it through a whole season, like Roy Helu can't.