Gun Control

[BigRedBuster]

Where did I say that?

 

I'm not against various gun laws. My point is, I believe the national discussion is being focused on one part of the equation and the other part (the most important part to me) is being ignored for the most part.

 

To be honest, here are my feelings on the subject. I have not heard anything from congress or the media that I believe will stop these killings. Not one damn thing. Now, as a gun owner, I believe that people like the NRA are part of the equation that is in this discussion. If they don't want their products attacked by special interest groups, then they need to take the lead in truly figuring out the problem. Simply coming out and saying what they are saying isn't helping anything either.

 

The fact is, there is a very small minority of people in this country that have something mentally wrong that makes them think this is the thing to do. Until we figure that out, there will still be killings. Now, maybe instead of 20 people being killed there is 5 to 10 people killed. I guess you could say that's an improvement. But, it's a pretty sad day when that is looked at as an improvement.

[Junior]

Where did I say that?

 

I'm not against various gun laws. My point is, I believe the national discussion is being focused on one part of the equation and the other part (the most important part to me) is being ignored for the most part.

 

To be honest, here are my feelings on the subject. I have not heard anything from congress or the media that I believe will stop these killings. Not one damn thing. Now, as a gun owner, I believe that people like the NRA are part of the equation that is in this discussion. If they don't want their products attacked by special interest groups, then they need to take the lead in truly figuring out the problem. Simply coming out and saying what they are saying isn't helping anything either.

 

The fact is, there is a very small minority of people in this country that have something mentally wrong that makes them think this is the thing to do. Until we figure that out, there will still be killings. Now, maybe instead of 20 people being killed there is 5 people killed. I guess you could say that's an improvement. But, it's a pretty sad day when that is looked at as an improvement.

 

5 killed rather than 20 is an improvement. That it is sad that it has come to this is all of our faults, for not demanding action sooner.

 

However, as I mentioned above, if you truly care about mental illness and treating those who have it as a means to preventing future violence... well, that starts with ensuring the mentally ill are able to get the care they need. That starts with ensuring that all Americans can get the medical care they need.

[rawhide]

http://aje.oxfordjou...160/10/929.full

 

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

http://www.npr.org/b...ates-gun-debate

 

]Art Kellermann was raised in eastern Tennessee, where his father taught him how to shoot a long gun when he was 10 years old. Kellermann grew up to become an emergency room doctor — and a target for gun-rights groups when he started asking questions like, "If a gun kept in a home was used, who did it shoot, and what were the consequences?"[/size]

Kellermann found people turned those guns on themselves and others in the house far more often than on intruders. "In other words, a gun kept in the home was 43 times more likely to be involved in the death of a member of the household than to be used in self-defense," he says.

 

Kellermann says the National Rifle Association and other Second Amendment advocates leaned on his then-employer, Emory University, to stop the research. That didn't work.

 

So, he says, "they turned to a softer target, which was the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], the organization that was funding much of this work. And although gun injury prevention research was never more than a tiny percentage of the CDC's research budget, it was enough to bring them under the fire of the NRA."

 

I also find it very interesting that suddenly republicans are worried about mental illness. Yet the most frequently untreated mentally ill are homeless and poor... but the same group votes against healthcare for these very people.

36k suicides in 2004 19k by firearms. Do you think that those 19k would have followed the other 17k that didn't use a firearm if one wasn't available?? Isn't suicide a form of mental illness? Isn't ObamaCare(passed by the Democrat controlled Senate) going to cover mental illness since it is a health care issue? Somewhere in that 7000 page document should be an answer.

 

Bottom line: 19k people committed suicide via firearms. 11k homicides via firearms. And yet there were only 839k+ induced abortions, 780k deaths from Cardiovascular Disease and 574k deaths from cancer.

 

Who is responsible for these deaths?

[Junior]

http://aje.oxfordjou...160/10/929.full

 

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

http://www.npr.org/b...ates-gun-debate

 

Art Kellermann was raised in eastern Tennessee, where his father taught him how to shoot a long gun when he was 10 years old. Kellermann grew up to become an emergency room doctor — and a target for gun-rights groups when he started asking questions like, "If a gun kept in a home was used, who did it shoot, and what were the consequences?"

Kellermann found people turned those guns on themselves and others in the house far more often than on intruders. "In other words, a gun kept in the home was 43 times more likely to be involved in the death of a member of the household than to be used in self-defense," he says.

 

Kellermann says the National Rifle Association and other Second Amendment advocates leaned on his then-employer, Emory University, to stop the research. That didn't work.

 

So, he says, "they turned to a softer target, which was the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], the organization that was funding much of this work. And although gun injury prevention research was never more than a tiny percentage of the CDC's research budget, it was enough to bring them under the fire of the NRA."

 

I also find it very interesting that suddenly republicans are worried about mental illness. Yet the most frequently untreated mentally ill are homeless and poor... but the same group votes against healthcare for these very people.

36k suicides in 2004 19k by firearms. Do you think that those 19k would have followed the other 17k that didn't use a firearm if one wasn't available?? Isn't suicide a form of mental illness? Isn't ObamaCare(passed by the Democrat controlled Senate) going to cover mental illness since it is a health care issue? Somewhere in that 7000 page document should be an answer.

 

Bottom line: 19k people committed suicide via firearms. 11k homicides via firearms. And yet there were only 839k+ induced abortions, 780k deaths from Cardiovascular Disease and 574k deaths from cancer.

 

Who is responsible for these deaths?

 

You are asking who is responsible for death from a disease versus death from shooting someone? Really? That's your comparison?

 

Since you asked: we spend millions, maybe billions, of federal dollars researching things like heart disease and cancer. We spend millions of federal dollars researching traffic deaths. Yet the NRA and certain members of congress are happily preventing people from using federal money to research gun violence. I think you might want to ask yourself why.

[BigRedBuster]

Where did I say that?

 

I'm not against various gun laws. My point is, I believe the national discussion is being focused on one part of the equation and the other part (the most important part to me) is being ignored for the most part.

 

To be honest, here are my feelings on the subject. I have not heard anything from congress or the media that I believe will stop these killings. Not one damn thing. Now, as a gun owner, I believe that people like the NRA are part of the equation that is in this discussion. If they don't want their products attacked by special interest groups, then they need to take the lead in truly figuring out the problem. Simply coming out and saying what they are saying isn't helping anything either.

 

The fact is, there is a very small minority of people in this country that have something mentally wrong that makes them think this is the thing to do. Until we figure that out, there will still be killings. Now, maybe instead of 20 people being killed there is 5 people killed. I guess you could say that's an improvement. But, it's a pretty sad day when that is looked at as an improvement.

 

5 killed rather than 20 is an improvement. That it is sad that it has come to this is all of our faults, for not demanding action sooner.

 

However, as I mentioned above, if you truly care about mental illness and treating those who have it as a means to preventing future violence... well, that starts with ensuring the mentally ill are able to get the care they need. That starts with ensuring that all Americans can get the medical care they need.

 

 

I would be interested in a statistic that shows these people didn't get mental help because they couldn't afford it or they didn't have benefits to pay for it.

 

Years ago, Americans all of a sudden decided that mentally ill people shouldn't be institutionalized like they used to be. That was supposedly cruel to keep them locked up in an institution where someone can watch them so they didn't hurt themselves or others.

[Junior]

http://gizmodo.com/5975734/the-nras-new-target-practice-app-teaches-four+year+olds-to-shoot

 

Here is some free PR advice for the National Rifle Association: Now is not the time to release a target practice iOS app—especially one intended for kids. According to the NRA, the app is intended for children as young as age four.

 

In Target Practice you can choose to test your skills in an indoor or outdoor range or opt to shoot skeet. You get to pick your weapon, and you can pony up $1 to unlock better (more powerful) guns. For example, in the outdoor range your default is an M16, but you can upgrade to an AK47 or an MK11 if you pay. It's really just a point-and-shoot game, but the fact that it's meant for kids is straight up stupid.

 

 

 

“There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting industry that sells and sows violence against its own people, through vicious, violent video games with names like ‘Bulletstorm,’ ‘Grand Theft Auto,’ ‘Mortal Kombat’ and ‘Splatterhouse.’” -- NRA President Wayne LaPierre.

[BigRedBuster]

Soooo......any shooting game for kids is bad? What about BB guns? I have a problem with games like Grand Theft Auto. I don't have a problem with a game that allows a kid to shoot skeet. There is a huge difference.

[Junior]

Soooo......any shooting game for kids is bad? What about BB guns? I have a problem with games like Grand Theft Auto. I don't have a problem with a game that allows a kid to shoot skeet. There is a huge difference.

 

 

Guns don't kill people, video games kill people!

 

 

I'll grant there is a huge difference. I just think the timing of it is tone deaf, the marketing to 4 year olds is absurd, and the release itself is ridiculous considering he's whining about video games.

[BigRedBuster]

I don't have issues with anything you said other than:

 

the marketing to 4 year olds is absurd

 

Again, so any shooting game is bad? You admit that there is a huge difference. One instills violence. The other is simply acting like you are practicing a skill that isn't any different than shooting a basketball. Contrary to some thoughts, just the act of shooting a gun is not violence.

[BigRedBuster]

Another statistic I would like to see is how many of these people were brought up with guns with good mentors showing them gun safety and the proper use of a gun.

[rawhide]

For Junior:

 

Did I say versus anywhere in my post? Nope

 

Comparisons; sure if you want to draw any.

 

But aren't you more horrified by the number and scope involved with the health related deaths? I am not going to include abortions as health related deaths.

 

How many of those could have been prevented with better education, nutrition, etc. The government has been trying that for a long time too. People make bad choices throughout life.

 

So you're saying 11k homicides is worse that 1.3M health related deaths? And the government has been trying to eradicate both for how long??

 

Another thing relating to legislation: MVA deaths have been fairly steady since 1946, even though Congress has passed safety legislation required of all autos in the US. Why is that?

 

What is the common denominator in all of these events/deaths/homicides/abortions? I'll provide my answer later.

[Junior]

For Junior:

 

Did I say versus anywhere in my post? Nope

 

Comparisons; sure if you want to draw any.

 

But aren't you more horrified by the number and scope involved with the health related deaths? I am not going to include abortions as health related deaths.

 

How many of those could have been prevented with better education, nutrition, etc. The government has been trying that for a long time too. People make bad choices throughout life.

 

So you're saying 11k homicides is worse that 1.3M health related deaths? And the government has been trying to eradicate both for how long??

 

Another thing relating to legislation: MVA deaths have been fairly steady since 1946, even though Congress has passed safety legislation required of all autos in the US. Why is that?

 

What is the common denominator in all of these events/deaths/homicides/abortions? I'll provide my answer later.

 

Am I horrified by cancer deaths? I sure am... which is why I strongly support federal funding for the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control. And I would like to see the US spend some money researching the causes of gun violence. Outside of this, I'm sorry, I just really don't see what deaths from cancer have to do with anything in a gun control debate. If you'd like to enlighten me... feel free. Because I'm confused on what exactly your point is.

 

Also, I'll debate you on abortion if you want, but I again fail to see what relevance this has to the topic at hand.

[Junior]

I don't have issues with anything you said other than:

 

the marketing to 4 year olds is absurd

 

Again, so any shooting game is bad? You admit that there is a huge difference. One instills violence. The other is simply acting like you are practicing a skill that isn't any different than shooting a basketball. Contrary to some thoughts, just the act of shooting a gun is not violence.

 

True, though I've never seen anyone killed by an errant basketball shot.

[BigRedBuster]

I don't have issues with anything you said other than:

 

the marketing to 4 year olds is absurd

 

Again, so any shooting game is bad? You admit that there is a huge difference. One instills violence. The other is simply acting like you are practicing a skill that isn't any different than shooting a basketball. Contrary to some thoughts, just the act of shooting a gun is not violence.

 

True, though I've never seen anyone killed by an errant basketball shot.

 

What difference does that make? People are killed with cars all the time. So, should we also be upset that their are driving games marketed to kids?

 

The act of simply shooting a gun is not violence.

[BigRedBuster]

What I'm getting at is that the discussion in this country is not focusing on the problem. You are falling into it also. A gun was used to commit this horrible act. People can be violent with guns. So, your thought process is that any promotion of anything shooting or with a gun is promoting violence and that just simply isn't the case.

 

If I take my shot gun out and shoot skeet in my back yard, there is absolutely NOTHING violent about that. years ago there was a chain saw massacre in Texas. So, does that mean that if I go cut down a dead tree in my back yard I'm being violent because I'm using a chain saw? People have been killed with a chain saw after all.