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Kill the (C)rap music before the game..


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Maybe play this before every NU offensive series?  

Wow never been able to post this before...   In AFTER the lock!!!

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Eminem is a great rapper, but goddamn he has a terrible ear for beats. Dr. Dre needs to slap some sense into him.

 

Are you speaking generally, or are you talking about "Underground?" I would agree generally, especially regarding his last two albums. But if you're talking about "Underground," - Dre produced that track.

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Not sure if serious, but if you want to have a serious musical discussion, rap is actually one of the most rhythmically sophisticated genres of Western music...
What's really sad, is there's probably some people out there that actually think that...and that remedial math uses really hard equations..and finger painting is the toughest form of expression to master...But seriously..You got any examples? I didn't think they even sampled anything very sophisticated... To be fair...I recently saw one of those drummers that regularly play one of the late night Jimmy shows (Kimmel or Fallon) who I guess I'd only seen play hip hop before..But he was actually showing some promise playing something with Elvis Costello IIRC
You are so right H37 and as for, "if you want to have a serious musical discussion, rap is actually one of the most rhythmically sophisticated genres of Western music..." this has to be a lame attempt at humor. The people at the Stadium who are running the sound system need to be more aware of their audience. T_O_B
And Hercules...I really mean it about giving us an example…

Ok. You guys want to talk music? I don't know sh#t about football compared to music. Prepare for my thesis:

 

Here are your examples. I took the tune you seemed to like by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which, given its release date, isn't that bad rhythmically (lyrically, on the other hand…). We'll compare that to "Underground," the last track from Relapse by Eminem.

 

There are many different ways to create rhythmic complexity or sophistication - in these two pieces, we'll look at polymeter, syncopation, hemiola, and motivic development.

 

Screen Shot 2013-11-21 at 8.13.29 PM.png

 

These are the first four measures of the first verse. The vocal rhythm is ridiculously repetitive - almost the exact same rhythm every bar, and there's always an accent on beat 4. It's not remotely syncopated (it always emphasizes the beat), and it stays that way pretty much the whole song. It hardly ever changes, and when it does, it still emphasizes beat 4.

 

Really, the vocals are comically bad, but it was in 1991, before "Illmatic" was released and changed the way everyone rapped. All rappers sounded pretty square back then. The drums are also repetitive and pretty dull - this song was saved by the bass and guitar player. That's where all the syncopation is, and that's what makes it groove. The guitar is really the only voice in the entire band that actually varies a little bit from measure to measure.

 

Now, check out Eminem's Underground. The excerpt I wrote out happens towards the end of the last verse.

 

Screen Shot 2013-11-21 at 8.44.52 PM.png

 

This song starts with the chorus, but it's in a 5/8 time signature. When the verse starts, the bass/bass drum continue in 5/8, while the hi-hat cymbal, guitar, and Eminem are in 4/4 time. The snare drum is the only voice that connects those two time signatures - they always line up at the snare drum on beats 2 and 4. This use of polymeter, all by itself, makes this song one of the most sophisticated songs you'll find in commercial music.

 

On top of that, the hi-hat rhythm and guitar rhythm, which just repeat each bar, are both syncopated figures (as opposed to emphasizing the beat, they emphasize the "a" of beat 2, and the "and" of beat 3.

 

Then there's Eminem. Here's a rapper that has perfected the use multi-syllabic rhyme schemes and internal rhyme sequences to create incredibly complex rhythms in his music. Just one example of this comes in the phrase transcribed above. Eminem takes "sanity," a three-syllable sound, and rhymes it with "can it be," "vanity," (hu-)"manity," "fantasy," and "amputee."

 

Unlike the Red Hot Chili Peppers, he's not just rhyming everything on beat four. He strings them together to create a hemiola (3 against 2. 16th notes come in two's, so grouping them in three's like Eminem does here is dope). Doing something like this would add a lot of rhythmic sophistication to a song in any genre, but Eminem's doing it in a song that's already written in two different meters.

 

And as if that weren't enough, he takes that 3-syllable rhythm motif and develops it at the end. Notice that "arm and leg" and "amputee," which are both grouped in 3's, are actually slightly different rhythms than earlier 3-syllable phrases, like "fantasy," and "can it be."

 

This is just two measures of Eminem's vocals. While the Red Hot Chili Peppers vocals are almost exactly the same every bar, Eminem changes where he accents, and instead of always ending at the end of the bar or at the end of two bars, sometimes his phrases spill over into the next bar, which creates even more layers.

 

That is sophisticated.

 

Thanks for the reply Herc.

 

I'm not sure if I really LIKE that Pepper's song as much as some of their other stuff..It's just probably one of the few Rap songs that I had in my collection besides Tone Loc? , and was the first (only?) one that came to mind that didn't sound like the drum part wasn't programmed by a 6 year old.

 

I'll try to check out that M&M guy..Can't stand his voice for some reason, but I'll try to get past that.

And that drum part might be a little tricky to play live without headphones, but NOT really what I'd consider all that "Sophisticated"

 

 

My Son's first (7th grade) band concert was Wednesday night...Part of me was a little afraid they would do a few rap songs because they were only beginners...

 

But seriously..I was impressed that the school had an ASU student working on her Doctoral Thesis and working with the kids on different approaches to composing..The couple of examples of their original compositions were pretty good for that age and not having a prodigy like Stevie Wonder or something..

 

If there are more schools out there like that, it gives me some hope for the future of music.

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I'm also a music educator, and it's always great to have students in the schools composing or improvising music - engaging in creative activity.

 

As far as the drums go… If playing in 4/4 time and 5/8 time simultaneously isn't sophisticated, I don't know what is. I guess it depends on how you define sophistication. I'm defining it as "including a high degree of complexity and refined structure." If you're thinking of "sophistication," as something that is limited to upper-class, pompous wine-tasters, than you're not going to think of hip-hop as sophisticated, because it's usually vulgar or offensive. But the structure of the music is every bit as intricate as any other genre, especially when it comes to rhythm.

 

Some other guys to check out that are virtuosic MC's like Eminem who create rhythms of tremendous complexity:

 

 

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....Now, check out Eminem's Underground. The excerpt I wrote out happens towards the end of the last verse.

 

 

 

 

"Fool me Once"

 

I cannot believe I actually fell for that...You really got me good.

 

I even listened to the outwardly gay part at the end thinking I missed something.

 

The drum part sounded like a 6'3" blind girl with an ankle sprain and a wooden leg walking across a knotty pine floor. and I've heard similar vocal rhythm at a farm auction.

 

I didn't understand my oldest brother at first when he went on about this drummer while they were both still alive..then I tried to play some of his stuff...I usually tell people I gave up music because I could never figure out how he switched time on the song, "Nobody's Fault But Mine...(and some still argue over what some of those 9/5? time that were used).

 

This Toyota commercial guy even seems to have more trouble playing it than I did...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCm_e7TFVHs

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John Bonham was a great rock drummer. "Nobody's Fault But Mine," is a great song, but it isn't in 9/5, it's just in good old 4/4 time with the occasional pause and some mixed meter thrown in on occasion, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Oh YEAH?

 

You're probably right..That's NOT really the Toyota Guy in the instructional videos..

 

:thumbs You sure seem to know what you're talking about though. :worship

 

Your description of the timing of that song is really unique but I kinda like it..It's a lot simpler than what/how I vaguely remember those other "Music Educators" describing it..The switch from 4/4 to 9/5 might be an exaggeration but what they were debating seemed just as implausible. (Wish I could still find their discussion..it was more than a little entertaining)...I doubt it will help me any better to hit the drum head at the right time though...

 

Beginning in the fifth? bar, The time signature in the breakdown which occurs after Verse 2; one measure of 4/4, one measure of 2/4, two measures of 4/4, then one measure of 2/4. But then he throws in a "Pause" as you put it, which totally throws me off if I haven't heard the song in a long time (And I'm tapping along on my steering wheel).

For the longest time I thought it would be impossible for Bonzo to play that thing live without headphones or at least ear plugs..and the videos I've seen of him playing it, he plays it a little different IIRC.

 

Simple rhythms aren't always bad just as complex rhythms aren't always good, it's just that I think I finally understand why so many rap/hipty hop songs employ drum machines in their "songs?" or rants...Few human drummers could stand the boredom of playing it.

 

And good luck trying to hold on to a Football if the stupid song you can't get out of your head has a beat to it that makes a heart murmur sound like the OTHER "most rhythmically sophisticated sound of Western music"

 

 

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John Bonham was a great rock drummer. "Nobody's Fault But Mine," is a great song, but it isn't in 9/5, it's just in good old 4/4 time with the occasional pause and some mixed meter thrown in on occasion, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Oh YEAH?

 

You're probably right..That's NOT really the Toyota Guy in the instructional videos..

 

:thumbs You sure seem to know what you're talking about though. :worship

 

Your description of the timing of that song is really unique but I kinda like it..It's a lot simpler than what/how I vaguely remember those other "Music Educators" describing it..The switch from 4/4 to 9/5 might be an exaggeration but what they were debating seemed just as implausible. (Wish I could still find their discussion..it was more than a little entertaining)...I doubt it will help me any better to hit the drum head at the right time though...

 

Beginning in the fifth? bar, The time signature in the breakdown which occurs after Verse 2; one measure of 4/4, one measure of 2/4, two measures of 4/4, then one measure of 2/4. But then he throws in a "Pause" as you put it, which totally throws me off if I haven't heard the song in a long time (And I'm tapping along on my steering wheel).

For the longest time I thought it would be impossible for Bonzo to play that thing live without headphones or at least ear plugs..and the videos I've seen of him playing it, he plays it a little different IIRC.

 

Simple rhythms aren't always bad just as complex rhythms aren't always good, it's just that I think I finally understand why so many rap/hipty hop songs employ drum machines in their "songs?" or rants...Few human drummers could stand the boredom of playing it.

 

Nobody's arguing that Bonham isn't a great drummer, or that Led Zeppelin wasn't a great band, or that "Don't Give It Away," isn't a great song. It is a great song, and it's got some very cool rhythmic stuff in it.

 

But it's flawed to think that because a drum part may or may not be complex, the song or genre as a whole may or may not be complex. In Hip Hop, the drum beat serves a different function than in other genres - it has to groove, it has to have some vibe, and it has to stay out of the way. Since vocals in rock aren't as rhythmically active as in hip-hop, a rock drummer has a little more freedom, they don't have to be as minimalist.

 

Here's Hip-Hop drummer ?uestlove, playing with D'Angelo. Is what he's doing complex? No. But there isn't another drummer in the world who can play this beat and groove that hard.

 

 

The idea that Hip-hop drummers aren't good musicians or are beginners is also flawed. Here's hip-hop drummer Chris Dave playing a Herbie Hancock tune, "Actual Proof."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFQd9KLdiT8

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John Bonham was a great rock drummer. "Nobody's Fault But Mine," is a great song, but it isn't in 9/5, it's just in good old 4/4 time with the occasional pause and some mixed meter thrown in on occasion, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Oh YEAH?

 

You're probably right..That's NOT really the Toyota Guy in the instructional videos..

 

:thumbs You sure seem to know what you're talking about though. :worship

 

Your description of the timing of that song is really unique but I kinda like it..It's a lot simpler than what/how I vaguely remember those other "Music Educators" describing it..The switch from 4/4 to 9/5 might be an exaggeration but what they were debating seemed just as implausible. (Wish I could still find their discussion..it was more than a little entertaining)...I doubt it will help me any better to hit the drum head at the right time though...

 

Beginning in the fifth? bar, The time signature in the breakdown which occurs after Verse 2; one measure of 4/4, one measure of 2/4, two measures of 4/4, then one measure of 2/4. But then he throws in a "Pause" as you put it, which totally throws me off if I haven't heard the song in a long time (And I'm tapping along on my steering wheel).

For the longest time I thought it would be impossible for Bonzo to play that thing live without headphones or at least ear plugs..and the videos I've seen of him playing it, he plays it a little different IIRC.

 

Simple rhythms aren't always bad just as complex rhythms aren't always good, it's just that I think I finally understand why so many rap/hipty hop songs employ drum machines in their "songs?" or rants...Few human drummers could stand the boredom of playing it.

 

Nobody's arguing that Bonham isn't a great drummer, or that Led Zeppelin wasn't a great band, or that "Don't Give It Away," isn't a great song. It is a great song, and it's got some very cool rhythmic stuff in it.

 

But it's flawed to think that because a drum part may or may not be complex, the song or genre as a whole may or may not be complex. In Hip Hop, the drum beat serves a different function than in other genres - it has to groove, it has to have some vibe, and it has to stay out of the way. Since vocals in rock aren't as rhythmically active as in hip-hop, a rock drummer has a little more freedom, they don't have to be as minimalist.

 

Here's Hip-Hop drummer ?uestlove, playing with D'Angelo. Is what he's doing complex? No. But there isn't another drummer in the world who can play this beat and groove that hard.

 

 

The idea that Hip-hop drummers aren't good musicians or are beginners is also flawed. Here's hip-hop drummer Chris Dave playing a Herbie Hancock tune, "Actual Proof."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFQd9KLdiT8

 

Strange..I've been trying to play those videos all day from this thread, but my computer keeps locking up...My computer is probably trying to protect itself after falling for that M&M crap I had it play yesterday...No problems with some other threads I've tried tonight.

 

"Louie Louie" by the Kingsmen is a really really simple ditty...And considered by many as one of the greatest R&R songs ever..But it's also so simple I don't know of any starting garage band that didn't learn that one first or second...And part of you will also naturally wonder if the band could play anything that's more difficult or complex.

 

No Way am I saying that "Hip-hop drummers (Cannot be or) aren't good musicians or are beginners"...It's human nature to try to improve yourself and I'd hope that at least SOME of them WOULD try more complex genres..But I hope Herbie Hancock whom I thought was dead would have more respect for his music that to try to "rapify" it...When KISS tried to sell out and do Disco, I thought it was hilarious, but some of the better artists trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator just to make ends meet is just more than a little sad.

 

And that's a good point about the rapping being the focus of the "rhythm" rather than the percussion section, but it's pretty obvious that there's very little variation in that rhythm and the only main reason for it's success is the lack of a need for actual musical talent to be successful.

 

And as for your statement, "Is what he's doing complex? No. But there isn't another drummer in the world who can play this beat and groove that hard "

 

Are you sure you really want to exaggerate that way? I'm really looking forward to hearing it after I wipe my hard drive again or switch computers, but already, I'm thinking I could teach even somebody like Ringo Starr to play it in a few decades, or even play it myself if the swelling ever goes down on my arthritic fingers...My 12 year old was just upstairs playing a recognizable Alice In Chains drum part that I can't hear the rest of the music to because he's wearing headphones..I bet HE could pick it up even faster than I could if it didn't bore him...

 

I hope I'm wrong about your video, but after listening to what you either consider "sophisticated" or just don't know about how to use that sarcasm thingie...I don't know what to expect.

 

And "Giveitaway" is just a partly fair song..with a good Flea.

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