Jonathan Pollard

[carlfense]

Maybe but I doubt it. How much hate and angst would they have toward us if we didn't support Israel? Would 9/11 have happened? I doubt it.

I doubt it too. I'm just trying to find a way to rationalize something that I see as irrational.

 

I think we see such strong anti-American sentiments in the Middle East because of:

 

1. Our unapologetic and unflinching military support for Israel

2. Our presence on the Arabian peninsula, the invasion of Iraq and so on.

 

The second point is just an extension of the fist. The oil crises of the 1970's drove the Carter doctrine which asserted that we would use our military to protect our national interests (oil) in the Middle East. The crisis was complex but part of it was the Arab oil embargo against us for supporting Israel and another part of it was the Iranian revolution (which can also be tied to our meddling). The Carter doctrine matured and snowballed through the years until we found ourselves in the Gulf and Iraq wars.

 

The Arabs, Muslims, people in the M.E...whomever don't hate us because of our "freedom", or because we eat bacon or because our women wear bikinis, drive and vote. They hate us for very real and very good reasons. The lion's share of that hate stems not from the fact that we support Israel but how we support Israel.

Agreed. The "they hate our freedom!" group was laughable from the beginning. That said, I think that to some extent that the power brokers in the middle east benefit from (or maybe even rely on) having an outside villain. If they didn't have Israel and the U.S. they would have found some other Great Satan.

 

That's all just my opinion though.

[rawhide]

It boggles my mind how Israel could have power over us to release a spy like this. We have supported them and saved their asses from total demolition for over half a century. Actually, it pisses me off that they felt they needed to spy on us at all then they demand his release?

 

Go try to stay safe without us for once and see how long you last.

That's why the Israel first crowd that pops up every four years or so are particularly annoying . . .

 

Four years? It seems like they're always present.

 

You don't have to be a conspiracy nutjob to realize the amount of sway the pro-Israel lobby has on our Government, they're one of the most powerful around. The idea that such a group exists disturbs me - a collection of people in and around our government that advocate so strongly and so successfully for the interests of another nation and pursue policies that often hurt our country just to benefit another. For what? The kooky religious beliefs of some end-time Christian fanatics? As atonement for an atrocity that we not only did not commit but that we put an end to?

 

It's crazy. I know that sounds kind of anti-Semitic, or that's the kind of talk that you hear a lot of bigots push, but I am not one. Much (most?) of that lobby is made up of wacko fundamentalist Christians.

 

I also have no issue with the state of Israel existing, I fully support it, every people ought to have a right to a homeland, security and self governance - and by that same principle I support the Palestinians as well. I'm even fine with some of the military support we've given them like Operation Nickel Grass during the Yom Kippur war - if we can prevent their annihilation we ought to and if it requires guns and planes then fine but the support we give them now...with their settlements and treatment of people in Gaza and the Westbank...it's unacceptable in my eyes.

 

We've given them a blank check to commit all sorts of blunders and crimes that inevitably come back to blow up in our faces. At this point we should withdraw military support, no Arab nations are going to be invading them anytime soon and the "terrorists" they're fighting are ones they've created.

http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/bigot

 

Is it the Jewish or Christian lobbyists you are speaking of? Both groups have reasons to ask the US for support of the state of Israel.

 

So it's okay if we blunder and bombast our way through foreign policy but woe to our allies that do the same.

 

And it's not like the US isn't using the IDF as a way to enforce policy without actually involving the US military.

 

As an example: Lebanon; repository of refugees for decades. Palestinian/Syrian refugees by the 100k's are in Lebanon. It's not just Israel to blame for that.