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I am not so sure that is a sign of a failing right so much as it is a sign that offensive bluster plays extremely well with certain groups right now.

 

The Republican party could try to move into the Democratic space, by taking things like their old healthcare plan and offering a different take on how to carry it forward. Instead, they are busy attacking and occupying everywhere the Democrats are not, playing to all corners. They're a party in disarray that needs to find a better message than "We're not ___".

 

It's better for America when we have two parties that are trying to do things better than one another, rather than focus on vilifying the other to extremes. It's terribly unproductive and an insidiously unhealthy way of pandering for votes.

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Let's be clear about something. The Republican party is not completely in shambles other than trying to get someone in the Whitehouse. They have won back both houses of congress and still have a large following in the population.

 

The problem is when you try to put one person up across the nation that is going to appeal to a large mass of people, their constant rhetoric of vilifying the other side because tired and meaningless.

 

And, my fear with the large following in the population is largely based off of crap people read on social media or Foxnews.

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***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

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There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

:lol:

. . . not in 2016. The GOP has 4 governors alone that in prior years would have been chosen as the frontrunner just as Hillary seems to be this year (Kasich, Perry, Walker, and Bush). These guys are wildly popular, and three of them in states Obama carried both times.

 

Walker is so popular he had to face a recall in his state. I am sure the rest of America will love him though.

 

 

He faced a recall in a very blue progressive state because he took on the unions, something that was very bold, and guess what... HE WON. He has won 3 elections in a very blue progressive state.

 

As for Perry, I don't support him for President, and in 2012 he was not ready to run for office. I'm not saying his campaign will do better this time around, but he is much more prepared and has clearer focus on his ideas and his record. The bigger point I was making which you seem to lose sight of is that he was governor for many years in a very large state, and he has an outstanding resume of results and job creation while there. Unlike progressive California that is in debt and whose bleeding jobs, Texas is growing almost too fast. There have been countless articles around the different philosophies for governing in Texas vs California, and Perry's conservatism is a big reason why Texas has seen much greater growth.

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Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

This was a great post and I think it's important for any conservatives reading this board to take a hard look at it.

 

I'm in the same boat. There was a period in my life where I drank every drop of conservative media I could get my hands on. Eventually it got to the point where I could predict more or less what Sean Hannity was going to say that night before he came on the air. I didn't need to watch the show anymore. Once I heard what the story or the newest and worst controversy was, I could instantly divine exactly what conservative media would tell me to believe about it.

 

Noam Chomsky makes an argument in his book Manufactured Consent––which was a seminal work of media criticism––that the media's function has little to do with information and a lot to do with setting the "acceptable" parameters of our national discourse. People forget we once had a strong socialist party (actually two socialist parties and a Marxist party) in this country. These were not fringe organizations, either. Their combined influence was tremendous, paving the way to the New Deal.

 

Which is another reason Sanders is important, win, lose or draw. The very fact that it is now acceptable in the United States to call yourself a democratic socialist (or a liberal) is a sign of the times. The right is failing. It's so bad that Donald Trump, who favored single payer healthcare and has no allegiance whatsoever to "conservative values," is able to walk into the Republican Primary and blow off his opponents like so many flies buzzing around him. It really is incredible.

 

 

Please point me to a poll that shows that a majority of Americans are acceptable of socialism or a Socialist candidate.

 

Also, let's stop the BS that ideological media is one-sided. There are plenty of Conservative voices out there just as there are liberal voices. When Bush was President, the liberal voices went on, and on, and on, and on of how bad Bush was. It's the nature of politics unfortunately, and the party that is out of power in the White House usually has the loudest voice. Are you really going to sit here and act like there Big Liberal media was not on the attack against Bush 43 day in and day out?

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***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

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This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

:lol:

 

. . . and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President?

He accurately pointed out that Republicans and Iranian hardliners are taking the same position. What is there to disapprove of?

 

If you don't like that comparison then you should take it up with the GOP and their Iranian allies.

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Please point me to a poll that shows that a majority of Americans are acceptable of socialism or a Socialist candidate.

 

Whoops, another straw man. Got a real collection going in this thread. Saying that something is acceptable is not the same thing as saying something is the majority view.

 

Also, the majority of Americans probably could not tell you what Socialism is, or how it differs from Marxism, Capitalism, or––most importantly in our immediate political context––democratic socialism.

 

Also, let's stop the BS that ideological media is one-sided. There are plenty of Conservative voices out there just as there are liberal voices. When Bush was President, the liberal voices went on, and on, and on, and on of how bad Bush was. It's the nature of politics unfortunately, and the party that is out of power in the White House usually has the loudest voice. Are you really going to sit here and act like there Big Liberal media was not on the attack against Bush 43 day in and day out?\

 

I can't stop because I never started. You have missed my point two or three times now. I'm increasingly convinced this is deliberate. My worldview is not dominated by the left vs. right thinking that's entrenched in the news-infotainment business.

 

One book I read in high school that has served me well in life is Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business by Neil Postman, a media critic who frames his book about influential forms of media and technology in light of the differences between an Orwellian and a Huxleyan dystopia. Check it out.

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Please point me to a poll that shows that a majority of Americans are acceptable of socialism or a Socialist candidate.

 

Whoops, another straw man. Got a real collection going in this thread. Saying that something is acceptable is not the same thing as saying something is the majority view.

 

Also, the majority of Americans probably could not tell you what Socialism is, or how it differs from Marxism, Capitalism, or––most importantly in our immediate political context––democratic socialism.

 

Also, let's stop the BS that ideological media is one-sided. There are plenty of Conservative voices out there just as there are liberal voices. When Bush was President, the liberal voices went on, and on, and on, and on of how bad Bush was. It's the nature of politics unfortunately, and the party that is out of power in the White House usually has the loudest voice. Are you really going to sit here and act like there Big Liberal media was not on the attack against Bush 43 day in and day out?\

 

I can't stop because I never started. You have missed my point two or three times now. I'm increasingly convinced this is deliberate. My worldview is not dominated by the left vs. right thinking that's entrenched in the news-infotainment business.

 

One book I read in high school that has served me well in life is Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business by Neil Postman, a media critic who frames his book about influential forms of media and technology in light of the differences between an Orwellian and a Huxleyan dystopia. Check it out.

 

X - I've placed this book on my amazon wish list. Looks interesting. Here is a good review of it - I place in bold and underlined what really caught my attention. We on the conservative side often talk about the 'low information voters' who would vote for Obama. However, that is a cheap excuse for not having quality candidates who can win. Low information voters can be found on both sides and as noted in this review are manipulated by sound bites, pictures, and distracted by entertainment 'bling' & trivial messages from culture from really knowing the facts:

 

For anyone interested in exploring the meaning of the rapid eclipse of ordinary reality and how it is being changed and altered by the rise of the electronic media, this book is very important. From the introduction and Postman's tongue-in-cheek comments about the novel 1984, his observations regarding the cogency of British author Aldous Huxley's technotronic nightmare vision in "Brave New World" through out the book right up to its conclusion, Postman binds your interest by illustrating and documenting how the rise of the elecrtonic media and its manipulation of what you see in way of news and entertainment has inexorably changed the meanings,purposes and ultimate uses of politics, economics, and technology. As Huxley himslef warned, totalitarian societies need not arise through violent overthrow of the democracies using brutality, cruelty and violence, but can also occur whenever the citizenry is successfully deluded into apathy by petty diversions and entertainments, as well. Postman shows how the electronic media's presentation of facts and fcition in an entertaining fashion diverts us, channeling our attention, money, and energies in ways that make us much more susceptible to social, political and economic manipulation and eventual subjugation. The book is a bit difficult to read at points, but well worth a sustained effort and a little concentration. For any citizen concerned about how the media is rapidly changing the rules of political, social, and economic engagement, and what it portends for the future, this book is a must read. And follow it up with Postman's book "Technopoly", which picks up where this book leaves off.

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TGH....

 

You hit on something that is important. You mentioned the "uninformed voter". Back when I was a Republican and would listen to conservative radio during the day then go home and watch Foxnews every night, I THOUGHT I was one of the most informed people in the country. After all, I'm listening to people talk about the issues constantly.

 

What I have since realized is that I was one of those "uninformed voters" due to the fact that I was only listening to one side and that one side demonized the other side so much that I didn't believe anything they said and quite frankly, they were the enemy.

 

Now, before Brill comes on and claims I'm only saying that about conservatives. I'm not. My example is about conservatives only due to the fact that I am conservative so that is the media I was listening to. There are just as "uninformed" people on the other side. They listen to one side of an issue or group of issues and all of a sudden make opinions based on not knowing the other side.

 

Another important thing people need to acknowledge and realize is that there are very smart people on both sides of issues that don't have their views based on some evil motivation. People have different experiences in life that form their views. We should listen to both sides and form opinions.

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X - I've placed this book on my amazon wish list. Looks interesting. Here is a good review of it - I place in bold and underlined what really caught my attention. We on the conservative side often talk about the 'low information voters' who would vote for Obama. However, that is a cheap excuse for not having quality candidates who can win. Low information voters can be found on both sides and as noted in this review are manipulated by sound bites, pictures, and distracted by entertainment 'bling' & trivial messages from culture from really knowing the facts:

 

I agree, and it has a lot to do with why our political system is malfunctioning, to put it mildly.

 

Take the Hillary e-mail scandal as an example. I've heard some pretty outrageous accusations and conclusions thrown out there. I imagine a fair percentage of the right wing thinks that Hillary Clinton herself under criminal investigation for "destroying" a server that contained classified information. That's not entirely accurate. But what partisan hacks learned centuries ago was that if you tell a lie enough times––best when attended with a BREAKING NEWS swooshing graphic and some exciting music––it starts to take the form of truth. Hillary Clinton is not under criminal investigation and she did not destroy a server, and there is some confusion as to when the "classified" material was classified, and why it was classified.

 

The problem is even if the hosts that put this stuff out there end up being proven right in a few months, we still have ourselves a classic case of the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Eventually you get tired of being burned by this kind of stuff and go look for sources that don't have a vested interest in the destruction/humiliation of political opponents.

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***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

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Bril,

 

Were you in the process of contemplating a response to this question?

 

Thanks,

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

 

Hey, as I stated earlier, I think this is a fair question and criticism. I honestly think they have poor Congressoinal leadership and Boehner and McConnell must go. I think there are way too many career policians in Congress that no longer know how to compromise and get results.

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TGH....

 

You hit on something that is important. You mentioned the "uninformed voter". Back when I was a Republican and would listen to conservative radio during the day then go home and watch Foxnews every night, I THOUGHT I was one of the most informed people in the country. After all, I'm listening to people talk about the issues constantly.

 

What I have since realized is that I was one of those "uninformed voters" due to the fact that I was only listening to one side and that one side demonized the other side so much that I didn't believe anything they said and quite frankly, they were the enemy.

 

Now, before Brill comes on and claims I'm only saying that about conservatives. I'm not. My example is about conservatives only due to the fact that I am conservative so that is the media I was listening to. There are just as "uninformed" people on the other side. They listen to one side of an issue or group of issues and all of a sudden make opinions based on not knowing the other side.

 

Another important thing people need to acknowledge and realize is that there are very smart people on both sides of issues that don't have their views based on some evil motivation. People have different experiences in life that form their views. We should listen to both sides and form opinions.

Yes, I was that way as well and I'm still much more conservative than Carl, X, Knapp for example but I've learned from all 3 of them because I chose not to close my mind. I've also come to realize that the other side isn't evil they just have a different approach to fixing the same problem. - either side can go to extreme and become evil totalitarians - communistic or fascist (did I spell that right??) One can learn from each other. Chinese proverb - Learning is like rowing a boat upsteam, when you stop you go backwards.

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