[Spoilers] Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread

[Mavric]

If we were five or ten years removed from A New Hope, this could not have been the next Star Wars movie. We're not anywhere close to that. We're almost four *decades* away. While the OT may feel like yesterday to the fans, the existence of a new trilogy isn't fanservice for past generations. It's not "picking up where we left off. You all remember, right? If not, rent it on youtube." It's re-establishing what Star Wars is all about and forging in new directions.

 

That's a heck of a task and I think you'll find that the consensus at least is they've pulled it off (albeit the work's not finished). It could have easily been too loosely related, or too much a sequel that requires prior knowledge. Instead, to me anyway, it's the perfect balance, and welcomes with open arms both fans familiar with the legend of Luke Skywalker or ones who've just heard about it over the years.

 

I just noticed by the way, that the Ep 9 director is the guy who did Jurassic World. That makes me nervous. I kind of hated JW.

I don't disagree with any of that. I would just add - as I responded to QMany earlier - that retelling the same story isn't the only way to bring in a new generation of fans. It's one way - that I happen to not care for in particular - but not the only way.

 

I think a lot of the movie was actually pretty good. I have three main dislikes - the Luke-is-missing premise (which I don't necessarily down-grade it for, I just don't think it fits), the rushed transitions (Jakku-to-Falcon-to-Takodana, blow-up-Starkiller, R2 suddenly wakes up), and the recycled Death Star/Starkiller sequence. Basically, I think they tried to do a little too much for one movie. I know they needed some grand climax but if they didn't spend so much time on the battle to destroy Starkiller - which was rushed anyway - they could have done a little more justice to some other parts. I think Ren killing Solo then battling with Rey and Finn would have been enough of a climax by itself - especially if further expanded upon - without the backdrop of trying to destroy Starkiller. And they still would have had the cliffhanger of finding Luke at the end.

 

Just seems to me like they fell a little bit into the modern trap of having to have bigger/more explosions and fighting to think they have a good movie. Less would probably have been more, imo.

[Landlord]

I just noticed by the way, that the Ep 9 director is the guy who did Jurassic World. That makes me nervous. I kind of hated JW.

 

 

 

 

As someone who was ready to hate JW entirely, I thought it was a good flick. A little bit too campy summer blockbuster, but what they got right was trying to recreate what the original story was actually about (hint: not really about dinosaurs). Trevorrow getting that gig was surprising, as his only other directorial work was a good but very under the radar indie film, so the jury is kind of still out on him. Thankfully he's (hopefully) going to be set up to succeed by the previous two films, and a good team of writers and producers.

[zoogs]

I'm definitely on board with less-is-more in general. I thought all the planet-destroyer-as-nuclear-weapon analogy fit reasonably well here, though. It was a good way to show what bad guys in this universe are about, in a movie with too much else going on to really dive into the First Order's motivations.

 

Similarly, I think giving more to the forest confrontation would've taken away from it. It was actually a quiet climax, framed well: the main characters stealing away from the chaos to settle their scores. For them, this is the fight, and it sets them off on different paths.

 

For the rest of the Resistance/First Order/galaxy, there needed also to be a major event to respond to. But they don't have access to their heroes' confrontation. They'll go forward, these X-wing pilots and Stormtroopers, completely unaware of the actual significance of what had just transpired. Even though it happened at the same time, in the same place! I think that juxtaposition was necessary, underscoring how personal and away from it all this journey is going to be for Rey.

 

I guess I felt that TFA was mostly a good showcase of restraint. I like how you put it, though. The 'modern trap' is difficult to avoid.

[zoogs]

As someone who was ready to hate JW entirely, I thought it was a good flick. A little bit too campy summer blockbuster, but what they got right was trying to recreate what the original story was actually about (hint: not really about dinosaurs). Trevorrow getting that gig was surprising, as his only other directorial work was a good but very under the radar indie film, so the jury is kind of still out on him. Thankfully he's (hopefully) going to be set up to succeed by the previous two films, and a good team of writers and producers.

Oh man. I'm the opposite. I was ready to love that movie so much. And visually, it was beautiful. There are good things there. When the crow landed in the snow in the opening scene, I was all what a time to be alive, but by the time Superficially Diabolical MIC Bad Guy got his Raptor Comeuppance, I was crushed.

 

Mind if we have a separate thread about this? I'd love to discuss that movie, too. Jurassic Park is very near and dear to me I'm curious for your thoughts of "what (each movie, the original and JW) was actually about".

 

I guess I'll say this: you are definitely more familiar with Treverrow than I am. Based on JW, I'm a little cynical about him directing a movie with as strong a female character as Rey.

[Landlord]

 

Mind if we have a separate thread about this?

 

 

 

 

done.

[Enhance]

 

As someone who was ready to hate JW entirely, I thought it was a good flick. A little bit too campy summer blockbuster, but what they got right was trying to recreate what the original story was actually about (hint: not really about dinosaurs). Trevorrow getting that gig was surprising, as his only other directorial work was a good but very under the radar indie film, so the jury is kind of still out on him. Thankfully he's (hopefully) going to be set up to succeed by the previous two films, and a good team of writers and producers.

Oh man. I'm the opposite. I was ready to love that movie so much. And visually, it was beautiful. There are good things there. When the crow landed in the snow in the opening scene, I was all what a time to be alive, but by the time Superficially Diabolical MIC Bad Guy got his Raptor Comeuppance, I was crushed.

 

Mind if we have a separate thread about this? I'd love to discuss that movie, too. Jurassic Park is very near and dear to me I'm curious for your thoughts of "what (each movie, the original and JW) was actually about".

 

I guess I'll say this: you are definitely more familiar with Treverrow than I am. Based on JW, I'm a little cynical about him directing a movie with as strong a female character as Rey.

 

In relation to the discussion about who is directing the 9th movie, I will say that I think the cards are already stacked against whoever it is. The last of a trilogy is always hardest to create, imo, because you have so many people and plot points to satisfy. Sometimes, you get too caught up in the plot and the movie loses itself a bit (LOTR: Return of the King) or your attempts to satisfy a bunch of different variables leave you with a plot that doesn't make much sense (The Dark Knight Rises).

 

The second in the trilogy can, often times, be the best.

 

Looking at the original Star Wars trilogy, ESB is the best (imo) and ROTJ is probably ranked third of the three. The Dark Knight is the best of that trilogy by far and TDKR is ranked third of the three. The Matrix Revolutions is also a good example of trilogy that ended, in my opinion, somewhat lackluster. Though, the original Matrix is certainly the best of the three.

 

I just really hope that the 8th and 9th movies have plots that blend but aren't necessarily directly related to one another. The Matrix hurt itself a bit in this regard, imo, because the first movie felt like a distant cousin from 2 & 3 as opposed to immediate relatives. The original Star Wars blended well by taking bits and pieces of what we learned from ANH and ESB and combining them to make ROTJ.

[Landlord]

Good points Enhance, but I think the third act, or final act, of a movie franchise sucking is only a recent mega-franchise blockbuster phenomenon and doesn't at all have to be true. Unfortunately when these cash cows get so big, there's too many hands involved, too much pressure, that it ends up crippling the third acts too often.

 

 

Return of the King was arguably the best, imo, but that entire trilogy was top notch from start to finish.

 

The final Harry Potter films (2 for the last book) were very solid and adequate.

 

The Bourne Ultimatum is a great third act film.

 

Toy Story 3 is killer.

 

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly counts right?

 

The third Die Hard movie wasn't as good as the first but was still very quality.

 

The Dark Knight Rises might be considered 3rd in the trilogy, but it was still very well received overall.

[Redux]

I think Episodes 8 and 9 will be fine since JJ Abrams will still be there to see it through as director. He shared his vision with Treverrow about wat his intentions were and vice versa so I don't anticipate much drop off in terms of direction the story takes.

[Redux]

This is some funny sh#t

 

Found at theCHIVE: ‘Emo Kylo Ren’ and ‘Very Lonely Luke’ had an intense Twitter battle (16 Photos)

http://thechive.com/2016/01/13/emo-kylo-ren-and-very-lonely-luke-had-an-intense-twitter-battle-16-photos/

[zoogs]

Oh, man. I approached this article with a "meh, here we go again" mindset but came away loving this theory. It's as perfect of an idea that I can think of on every level:

 

> Screenrant: Who is Snoke? A Theory...

 

As skilled as Sheev Palpatine may have been at playing politics to get power, the films show his rule is surprisingly crude, relying on fear and little else to maintain it. Frankly, the theory that a wiser, more extreme underling would conspire to build a bigger, better empire would actually have human history on its side.

It resolves aspects both in TFA and in the OT. I was ... less than impressed with Snoke, and the new movie didn't spend a lot of time dealing with him. And while Palpatine played the role of sheer evil manifest well, his Empire was quite short-lived for all his machinations and his downfall a little short-sighted. Really, really good at being an evil menace. Not quite as good at sustaining an empire. But he's put the machinery in place such that there are even crazier dudes in his ranks might.

 

This resonates in a lot of ways. We know there's a heavy theme of "What if the Nazis had successfully regrouped and kept on?" -- a topic that, even if overplayed, is still captivating today. And it reflects current realities in the Middle East, where our modern idea of evil manifest (al-Qaeda) has been pummeled, only to be superseded by a more extremist faction that rose from the ashes of past defeats, but barely even respects al-Qaeda anymore. Those developments are gripping, and so is this idea.

 

And, why not re-introduce an old character as underutilized as Tarkin was? He was powerful, menacing, and could order Vader around. He's intimately familiar with the history of Vader, Luke, and the Empire. He's ruthless and exactly the type of former Imperial leadership who would mastermind the First Order (also, he'd be exactly the sort of man that Hux could aspire to become! I find the idea of Hux's insane loyalty to a weird magical alien to be far more questionable). It's a weaker idea to have the First Order arise from hitherto unintroduced 3rd party observers, and if it did come from within the Empire itself, Tarkin is a far, far better candidate than "Generic Hitherto Unintroduced Officer Who Is Also Really Vile." There was always so much potential with his character and it was very unexplored. It can be explored in great detail now -- and it makes Snoke and the First Order an incredibly compelling set of antagonists in the film without imbueing them with supreme magical powers.

 

I'd find it hard to stomach the idea of a Dark Force user that outdid Palpatine in evilness or ability. But in ambition and ruthlessness? Absolutely. On top of clarifying his dynamic with Kylo, Hux, and the former Empire in a truly fascinating way, it would really tell a far darker, realer tale of human evil: defined by sheer human will, and not by prowess.

 

 

What do you all think? I definitely had some other ideas about where they could take Snoke, but they were not *nearly* as good or credible.

[Redux]

^ That is an interesting take for sure, definitely possible. I'm sticking with Darth Plagueis, but anything is possible.

[zoogs]

On second thought, I'm becoming even more enamored with the idea that it was another ambitious Imperial officer, but someone much younger than Tarkin. Where that's maybe weaker is less of a credible familiarity with Vader, the Emperor, and the Force, but maybe it's not as much of a weakness: he may have astutely recognized the importance of using the Dark Side as a tool to recruit enforces like Vader, and devoted efforts to that end.

 

Where it's stronger than the Tarkin theory is that it would recast the Admiral, for all his ruthlessness, as firmly old establishment -- influencing but by this time thoroughly washed away by a new tide that was only nascent within the Empire at the time of the OT. He could have been a men of Hux's age and temperament at that time, and while there's no ready-made explanation for gruesome injury, there doesn't really need to be. So while a callback might be appropriate enough here, maybe "new" stands well enough on its own, or better. Tarkin's story doesn't *need* to be extended in a new trilogy, after all, when any Imperial stand-in does the trick.

 

Snoke was also a gender-neutral casting, and Serkis has said he's a new character, so that might also shoot some holes into the previous theory

 

I think the Empire and the First Order are very, very human-centric. Too much so for the efforts of a member of another species such as Plageuis. And their goals, likewise, don't really appear to align with Plageuis's very Sith/Force/eternal life-oriented focuses. They're about power through dominion, enforcement of their idea of "order", and generally doing the Empire better than the Empire ever did. Plageuis is also completely tied to Anakin's origin story -- so I think it makes the most sense to let that be done here.

[Redux]

I'm on board now matter which direction they take Snoke. The fact that a character that got so little screen time remains so polarizing after the viewing is what makes me interested in where they go with him. And to top it off he was pretty generic looking. But everyone who has seen the film is thinking "Seriously, what is the story with this dude?".

 

We got a breath of fresh air with Ren IMO. A troubled younger dark force weilder done justice in the role whom we got to see truly cross over and lose the battle within over good and evil. Really excited what they do with him as well.

[Landlord]

Interesting theory on that site, but should be noted that The Rule of Two isn't canon anymore, since it was established in the Darth Bane novels which are now Legends.

 

 

The only canon alluding that exists to it is Yoda saying, "Always two, there are" in Episode 1, but that doesn't really necessarily mean much, especially since the jedi council spent the entire prequel trilogy with completely clouded Force sensitivity.

[zoogs]

Right, I don't think that was the strongest argument against him being Sith -- however, I'm very drawn to the idea that Snoke might be barely Force knowledgeable. He definitely inspires more questions than anybody else so far, and the idea of him being a straight up more powerful dark lord than Sidious was sounds quite unimaginative to me. OTOH, if he were a bit of a flip side of Maz Kanata...

 

Their endgame for Kylo Ren is also an interesting topic. What do you guys think?