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Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (Spoilers for Episode 7)

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On 7/2/2018 at 10:57 AM, RedDenver said:

You mean the 45 minute snooze-fest of a fight that has no stakes because we already know who wins? I mean, Lucas threw falling stuff, lava, and lava-surfboards (how ridiculous was that?) in there just to keep the audience from falling asleep. The fight could have been WAY more interesting if there were some stakes - like if Anakin wasn't fully evil and was more conflicted like he was in episodes 5 and 6. Then Obi-wan drawing the fight out for a long time to try to convert him back at least makes sense.

 

I didn't think Vader was born that way given we've both seen Anakin for 2.5 movies up to that point and we know Anakin becomes Darth Vader and we've already seen Vader and his redemption story. It's one of the classic pitfalls of telling a prequel. The fact Lucas tries to play up the big "reveals" of Palpatine being Sidious and Anakin becoming Vader show just how terrible of a storyteller he is. The prequels absolutely fall flat on the thing most important to them: character development. Prequels need to have interesting character development because the basics of the plot and how it ends are already known. And the plot is about the fall of Anakin Skywalker, so it hinges very heavily on that character.

 

Well said.  This is exactly why, in story-telling, you flesh out the origins first--especially if you're going to start the story in the middle.  That way, you're not trying to shoe-horn some convoluted origins story after the fact.  I remember reading an article, tried to find it, but couldn't...

 

Spielberg, and bunch of his director buddies sat down and critiqued each other's work, including Lucas's rough cut of Star Wars...long story short, they ripped it apart.  They cited scenes that made no sense, how x scene would be better if it was at y in the film, the dialogue, etc.  George Lucas is a damn talentless hack who, somehow, managed to fail upwards.  Ironically, the greatest Star Wars movie of the Lucas controlled era is "The Empire Strikes Back" and Lucas let other more competent filmmakers have control.  And the Prequels, they all have their moments of brilliance, but overall, a freshman at USC's film school could probably put out better films than Lucas could--then or now.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Redux said:

they are still better than most movies.

 

Based on... what? Just because you say things doesn't mean they have any element of truth to them.

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54 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

Based on... what? Just because you say things doesn't mean they have any element of truth to them.

 

Based on the fact that most movies aren't that good.  If you really want to be a hard on about my wording, seriously think about the statement for a second.  If we are comparing the prequel movies to ALL other movies from Shawshank Redemption to Madea's Halloween II or whatever, I think the prequels would sit towards the more favorable side of the scale.

 

But this is one of those instances that you just want to jump on the majority side of a dispute to look good.

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2 hours ago, Redux said:

Based on the fact that most movies aren't that good.

 

Once again you're just saying something as a fact claim that isn't based off of anything other than the way you feel. 

 

If you're counting every single movie ever made by professionals and amateurs alike over the course of human history, sure, but that's not the basis of comparison that anyone, including you, ever uses when talking about whether a movie is good or not. Maybe your original statement is even true and all the prequel movies are better than at least 51% of other movies in Hollywood - that's still not a compliment, and you still give no actual reason for claiming such a thing.

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I literally said they are better than most movies , so even if it was 51% the statement is true.  And my reasoning is because I like them and I could give a damn if my statement is true because it was pretty clearly an opinionated statement.  Don't be such a tool asking for numbers and studies to cement my claims.  You're in a thread about Sci Fi movies, wtf do you expect other than opinion.  Seriously?

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1 hour ago, Redux said:

I literally said they are better than most movies , so even if it was 51% the statement is true.  And my reasoning is because I like them and I could give a damn if my statement is true because it was pretty clearly an opinionated statement.  Don't be such a tool asking for numbers and studies to cement my claims.  You're in a thread about Sci Fi movies, wtf do you expect other than opinion.  Seriously?

 

 

"Most" can mean 51%, but most people use it to mean a large majority.

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13 hours ago, Redux said:

I and III are damn fine movies even with their flaws.  

 

I don't think this statement should be overlooked. This may be the first time in history that someone has called Episode I a "damn fine" movie. 

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2 hours ago, Moiraine said:

"Most" can mean 51%, but most people use it to mean a large majority.

 

determiner & pronoun
  1. 1.
    superlative of many, much.
  2. 2.
    greatest in amount or degree.
    "they've had the most success"
1 hour ago, Ulty said:

 

I don't think this statement should be overlooked. This may be the first time in history that someone has called Episode I a "damn fine" movie. 

 

Send me a f#&%ing cake then and be on your way

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8 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

determiner & pronoun
  1. 1.
    superlative of many, much.
  2. 2.
    greatest in amount or degree.
    "they've had the most success"

 

Send me a f#&%ing cake then and be on your way

 

 

I know the definition. Just sayin', most people don't use it to mean 51%.

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6 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I know the definition. Just sayin', most people don't use it to mean 51%.

 

So if I'm not using it incorrectly, what exactly is the issue?  Personal differences in percentages?  Hardly seems worth discussing or even bringing up to begin with.  And besides, if these numbers are the supposed gospel in terms of fan reception, not once is 51% anywhere to be found.

 

A New Hope: 94.5%

Empire Strikes Back: 96%

Return of the Jedi: 87%

 

Phantom Menace: 57%

Attack of the Clones: 61%

Revenge of the Sith: 72%

 

The Force Awakens: 90%

Rogue One: 86%

The Last Jedi: 68.5% 

Solo: 67%

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I will say this for the PT: if given the choice, I'd watch them again before TLJ. 

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On 7/9/2018 at 6:13 AM, Redux said:

I literally said they are better than most movies , so even if it was 51% the statement is true.  And my reasoning is because I like them and I could give a damn if my statement is true because it was pretty clearly an opinionated statement.  Don't be such a tool asking for numbers and studies to cement my claims.  You're in a thread about Sci Fi movies, wtf do you expect other than opinion.  Seriously?

 

Saying they are damn fine movies isn't an opinion statement, it's a fact statement. Saying they're better than most movies isn't an opinion statement, it's a fact statement. Saying something like, I still like them (like you did in this post, well done) and think they're good, OR, I think they're better than most movies, is an opinion statement. 

 

 

 

On 7/9/2018 at 9:59 AM, Redux said:

 

determiner & pronoun
  1. 1.
    superlative of many, much.
  2. 2.
    greatest in amount or degree.
    "they've had the most success"

 

You call me a tool asking for evidence of fact claims, then you provide dictionary definitions to defend a technicality that you didn't even mean to argue in the first place? :lol:

 

 

 

 

On 7/9/2018 at 10:14 AM, Redux said:

 

So if I'm not using it incorrectly, what exactly is the issue?  Personal differences in percentages?  Hardly seems worth discussing or even bringing up to begin with.  And besides, if these numbers are the supposed gospel in terms of fan reception, not once is 51% anywhere to be found.

 

A New Hope: 94.5%

Empire Strikes Back: 96%

Return of the Jedi: 87%

 

Phantom Menace: 57%

Attack of the Clones: 61%

Revenge of the Sith: 72%

 

The Force Awakens: 90%

Rogue One: 86%

The Last Jedi: 68.5% 

Solo: 67%

 

I can't tell if we're allowed to keep quibbling over the details or not, so forgive me if I'm not supposed to, but you're getting your own argument confused with a different argument and it's kind of funny. Let me break it down:

 

1. Redux says that the prequel movies are better than most other movies

2. Landlord contests this claim, but says that maybe if you are being literal the prequels might possibly be better than 51% of all movies ever made, but there hasn't been any evidence put forth for the claim.

3. Moiraine quibbles over Redux's definition of 'most', to which Redux replies with literal definitions

4. To support his argument about the prequel movies being better than most other movies Redux pastes Rotten Tomatoes averages showing that they're all above 51%, even though RT scores have nothing to do with the amount of movies that that movie is better than???

 

What do you think those numbers mean, exactly? The answer is not, "The Force Awakens is better than 90% of other movies".

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5 hours ago, Landlord said:

4. To support his argument about the prequel movies being better than most other movies Redux pastes Rotten Tomatoes averages showing that they're all above 51%, even though RT scores have nothing to do with the amount of movies that that movie is better than???

 

What do you think those numbers mean, exactly? The answer is not, "The Force Awakens is better than 90% of other movies".

 

 

That's a good point. I tried to find data on the quantiles for Rotten Tomatoes scores but couldn't. Regardless, I think that people (including critics) tend to like movies. A lot of people are happy just to go to the theatre. i.e., it's quite possible that 80% of all movies get a rating of over 50%.

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I literally used the same numbers that Cdog posted on page 5....

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18 hours ago, Landlord said:

Saying they are damn fine movies isn't an opinion statement, it's a fact statement. Saying they're better than most movies isn't an opinion statement, it's a fact statement. Saying something like, I still like them (like you did in this post, well done) and think they're good, OR, I think they're better than most movies, is an opinion statement. 

 

Um ..... this is false.  Unless you - or someone - has been made Official Worldwide Judge Of All Movies' Fine-ness that I don't know about.

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1 hour ago, Mavric said:

 

Um ..... this is false.  Unless you - or someone - has been made Official Worldwide Judge Of All Movies' Fine-ness that I don't know about.

Mr.Skin?  ha

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3 hours ago, Mavric said:

 

Um ..... this is false.  Unless you - or someone - has been made Official Worldwide Judge Of All Movies' Fine-ness that I don't know about.

 

 

He's meaning the same thing you are, basically. He's claiming Redux was stating "they are damn fine movies" as a fact, when it's only his opinion.

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16 hours ago, Redux said:

I literally used the same numbers that Cdog posted on page 5....

 

 

But you compared them directly to the 51% number, which made it seem like you might've thought if a movie had a rating of 51% on Rotten Tomatoes that it was better than 51% of movies.

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17 hours ago, Redux said:

I literally used the same numbers that Cdog posted on page 5....

 

 

Which have nothing to do with the percentage of movies that those movies are better than. When your argument was that they are better than most movies. Those numbers have nothing to do with that.

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1 hour ago, Landlord said:

Which have nothing to do with the percentage of movies that those movies are better than. When your argument was that they are better than most movies. Those numbers have nothing to do with that.

 

51% > 49%

 

That's just indisputable, the fact it's just BARELY true matters not.  And in this case, 51% is an arbitrary made up number when in actuality the number is larger.

 

2 hours ago, Moiraine said:

But you compared them directly to the 51% number, which made it seem like you might've thought if a movie had a rating of 51% on Rotten Tomatoes that it was better than 51% of movies.

 

That's a pretty long detour to come to an opposing view.  51% is simply the smallest number that tips the scale towards majority, see above

 

2 hours ago, Moiraine said:

He's meaning the same thing you are, basically. He's claiming Redux was stating "they are damn fine movies" as a fact, when it's only his opinion.

 

Should we all have little disclaimers as signature tags that say:

"WARNING, MAY SHARE OPINIONS OTHERS DISAGREE WITH, DON'T TAKE THESE AS FACT"

 

It would be pretty silly to do that wouldn't it? But I suppose since I'm in the minority here next time I get the urge to share that viewpoint I'll make sure that I let it known beforehand if my post is fact and or opinion.  My apologies for the confusion.

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3 hours ago, Redux said:

 

51% > 49%

 

That's just indisputable, the fact it's just BARELY true matters not.  And in this case, 51% is an arbitrary made up number when in actuality the number is larger.

 

 

That's a pretty long detour to come to an opposing view.  51% is simply the smallest number that tips the scale towards majority, see above

 

 

 

Rotten Tomatoes percentages can't be used the way you're using them. The % on RT is the % of reviewers who gave a positive review. It's not a quantile to rate movies against each other. A 57% doesn't mean it was better than 57% of other movies, which is how you're using it. It's completely unrelated to the number of movies with a lower score.

 

You can say people probably liked a 57% movie more than a 56% movie, but you don't know how many movies had a score of less than 56%. It could be only a small portion of all movies.

 

Let's pretend there are 100 movies ever made. It's possible that 85 of the movies have an RT score of more than 70%.

 

That would mean a movie with a score of 71% is only considered better than 15 other movies.

 

RT doesn't release the distribution of the percentages, so who knows. It could be that only 30% of all movies have a score of < 57%. Or maybe 65% of all movies have a score of < 57%.

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17 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

Rotten Tomatoes percentages can't be used the way you're using them.

 

I'll say this again....slowly.

 

I

Didn't 

Bring

The

RT

Percentages

Into

The

Discussion

 

And the 51% is a number that got pulled out of thin air.  Let me make this suggestion to you, walk away from this.  There is no discussion here, it's just bickering based off of disdain.  I'll even let you have the last word.

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20 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

I'll say this again....slowly.

 

I

Didn't 

Bring

The

RT

Percentages

Into

The

Discussion

 

And the 51% is a number that got pulled out of thin air.  Let me make this suggestion to you, walk away from this.  There is no discussion here, it's just bickering based off of disdain.  I'll even let you have the last word.

 

 

It doesn't matter who brought it into the discussion. The person who brought them into the discussion didn't use them incorrectly or try to prove how many more movies are worse than Ep I (thus "proving" it was better than the majority or most or 57%) based off the percentages. And I happen to like numbers and I completely disagree with the statement that Ep. I is good or that most people liked it or the incorrect use of these % to try to prove it. I've supported you several times in this topic and argue with Landlord quite a bit in other topics.

 

Now back on the discussing the numbers, I've discovered you can actually find the info if you browse at the below link.

 

42.7% of movies have a rating as bad or worse than Ep I. 57.3% of movies have a rating better than Ep. I. These are critic ratings I believe, so maybe not relevant.

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/browse/dvd-streaming-all?minTomato=0&maxTomato=100&services=amazon;hbo_go;itunes;netflix_iw;vudu;amazon_prime;fandango_now&genres=1;2;4;5;6;8;9;10;11;13;18;14&sortBy=release

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

It doesn't matter who brought it into the discussion. The person who brought them into the discussion didn't use them incorrectly or try to prove how many more movies are worse than Ep I (thus "proving" it was better than the majority or most or 57%) based off the percentages. And I happen to like numbers and I completely disagree with the statement that Ep. I is good or that most people liked it or the incorrect use of these % to try to prove it. I've supported you several times in this topic and argue with Landlord quite a bit in other topics.

 

Now back on the discussing the numbers, I've discovered you can actually find the info if you browse at the below link.

 

42.7% of movies have a rating as bad or worse than Ep I. 57.3% of movies have a rating better than Ep. I. These are critic ratings I believe, so maybe not relevant.

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/browse/dvd-streaming-all?minTomato=0&maxTomato=100&services=amazon;hbo_go;itunes;netflix_iw;vudu;amazon_prime;fandango_now&genres=1;2;4;5;6;8;9;10;11;13;18;14&sortBy=release

 

 

 

 

The initial discussion point was that the PT movies are better than most other movies out there. I provided evidence to show that critical and popular opinion, via one of the largest aggregation websites, disagrees with this. 

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It's gotten so diluted and pointless i just don't care anymore.  Fine, the PT movies are worse than "most" movies.  I still enjoy them even if I don't believe that to be true.

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1 hour ago, Cdog923 said:

 

The initial discussion point was that the PT movies are better than most other movies out there. I provided evidence to show that critical and popular opinion, via one of the largest aggregation websites, disagrees with this. 

 

 

 

Thanks.

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68% of Huskerboard usually agrees with me. I arrived at this conclusion from this graph :lol:

 

 

 

normal_68.gif

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EDIT: this post is now about how Landlord's graph is 1% from being cross-posted to the Shed. 

 

EDIT 2: Nevermind, it's apparently already there! 

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3 minutes ago, Cdog923 said:

 

No, you are interpreting the numbers, and how I originally provided them, incorrectly. I provided the numbers to give a broad-based comparison of the general consensus of both critics and audiences to the Star Wars movie franchise. This was to reply to Redux's point that the PT movies are better than most other movies by showing that, however flawed the formula might be, Rotten Tomatoes shows that the PT are generally thought of in an average-to-negative light (particularly in comparison with both the OT movies and a portion of the new movies), which is in direct conflict with his stated opinion.That was the original intent behind the numbers that I provided.  

 

 

I edite my post while you were typing. I completely misunderstood your reply, sorry. I didn't read the last part carefully.

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2 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I edite my post while you were typing. I completely misunderstood your reply.

 

Ah, I see. No worries, then! 

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36 minutes ago, Redux said:

It's gotten so diluted and pointless i just don't care anymore.  Fine, the PT movies are worse than "most" movies.  I still enjoy them even if I don't believe that to be true.

 

Your argument shouldn't be "The PT movies are better/worst than most others". It should be "I LIKE the PT movies more than most". Which really doesn't make it an argument at all, more of a discussion. I mean, we all like movies that can be seen as sort-of crappy by the population at large. 

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7 minutes ago, Cdog923 said:

 

Your argument shouldn't be "The PT movies are better/worst than most others". It should be "I LIKE the PT movies more than most". Which really doesn't make it an argument at all, more of a discussion. I mean, we all like movies that can be seen as sort-of crappy by the population at large. 

 

I think you're really ignoring the fact that there are countless terrible to mediocre films out there.  An impossible task, but if one could do so, even mostly awful Episode II would be more enjoyable to watch than the plethora of crappy movies available to watch.  Just browse through Netflix sometime and see how many BAD movies there are.
 

This isn't even really an argument, It was a statement and I stand by it even if it's a poor opinion or not.  And I'm over debating it.  I'm fully aware that the PT was largely disappointing compared to what it could have been.  That fact doesn't ruin it for me.

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14 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

I think you're really ignoring the fact that there are countless terrible to mediocre films out there.  An impossible task, but if one could do so, even mostly awful Episode II would be more enjoyable to watch than the plethora of crappy movies available to watch.  Just browse through Netflix sometime and see how many BAD movies there are.
 

This isn't even really an argument, It was a statement and I stand by it even if it's a poor opinion or not.  And I'm over debating it.  I'm fully aware that the PT was largely disappointing compared to what it could have been.  That fact doesn't ruin it for me.

 

I mean, sure, it's your hill to die on. March on, my man. 

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