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27 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Let me ask you this.  I fully support making changes to our gun laws to help prevent mass shootings.   I keep seeing people say we need to ban all semi-automatic guns.  Are we talking about certain kinds of semi-automatics or all semi-automatics?  I think there needs to be some education on exactly what that all means.  Let me give two examples.

 

1)  I have used semi-automatic shot guns for bird hunting.  They are very good for this use and, for the most part, aren't any different than a pump shotgun as far as ability for someone to take it and kill masses of people.

 

2)  I have never owned a hand gun simply because I have never had a need.  However, a hobby I have wanted to get into when I finally become and empty nester (May 2018 :)) is to to more hiking and camping in the mountains.  This is bear and mountain lion country.  I know people who do this and have been talking to them for a long time.  One thing is, you take a hand gun for safety.  You don't want to be staring down a mountain lion and not be able to protect yourself.


Both of these examples use semi-automatic weapons for completely reasonable and non-threatening reasons.


How can we balance this.

 

I know you weren't asking me, but I was just reading an article you might find interesting.  It's from Time Magazine from a year ago, and It is an interview with an avid hunter, sport target shooter and gun collector from Australia.  He gives an interesting perspective.  In Australia you can still own guns, even semi-automatic guns, but you have to prove that you have a legitimate use for them.

 

http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/

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Category A is .22s, shotguns and air rifles. That’s the easiest license to obtain. No semiautomatics are allowed.

 

Category B is for center fire rifles. You have to provide a reason for why you need a more powerful gun. I shoot feral pigs and foxes; that’s a valid reason. Again, no semiautomatics.

 

Category C is available only to farmers; they can own a semiautomatic shotgun or .22 but the cartridges are limited to five shots for the shotgun and 10 shots for the .22.

 

Category D, for semiautomatic guns and rifles, is only for professional shooters: you have to have a registered business and prove that you are earning an income through shooting.

 

An H license is for handguns. If you want to buy a pistol in Australia you’ve got to be a member of a target pistol club. You’ve got to do a minimum of eight competition shoots per year to keep your license. If you don’t, you lose it.

 

Category G is for collectors. For that you’ve got to attend at least one meeting per year.

 

I have licenses for Categories A, B, H and G.

 

 

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If you were to ask the average Australian who isn’t a shooter, they would say that most people shouldn’t have access to any firearms. But the reality is that gun-lovers like me belong to a club and are doing no harm. I go clay pigeon shooting on a Saturday. I go pistol shooting on Sunday morning. That’s my hobby. And then every month or every eight weeks I go and visit my friend’s farm and hunt his feral pigs. He loses about 1,500 to 2,000 lambs a year to feral pigs. So we deal with them.

 

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40 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Let me ask you this.  I fully support making changes to our gun laws to help prevent mass shootings.   I keep seeing people say we need to ban all semi-automatic guns.  Are we talking about certain kinds of semi-automatics or all semi-automatics?  I think there needs to be some education on exactly what that all means.  Let me give two examples.

 

1)  I have used semi-automatic shot guns for bird hunting.  They are very good for this use and, for the most part, aren't any different than a pump shotgun as far as ability for someone to take it and kill masses of people.

 

2)  I have never owned a hand gun simply because I have never had a need.  However, a hobby I have wanted to get into when I finally become and empty nester (May 2018 :)) is to to more hiking and camping in the mountains.  This is bear and mountain lion country.  I know people who do this and have been talking to them for a long time.  One thing is, you take a hand gun for safety.  You don't want to be staring down a mountain lion and not be able to protect yourself.


Both of these examples use semi-automatic weapons for completely reasonable and non-threatening reasons.


How can we balance this.

 

 

 

I can't remember if I posted it or just thought about it in my head. So throwing it out there (again?).

 

How about, you can't get a gun like that unless you have a hunting license, and maybe additionally, you can only have a limited number per hunting license in the household.

If you need a gun for self defense (most don't, and there are way more accidental deaths than bad guys killed), a "regular" gun should be enough to stop pretty much any intruder.

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2 minutes ago, Kiyoat Husker said:

 

http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/

Quote

If you were to ask the average Australian who isn’t a shooter, they would say that most people shouldn’t have access to any firearms. But the reality is that gun-lovers like me belong to a club and are doing no harm. I go clay pigeon shooting on a Saturday. I go pistol shooting on Sunday morning. That’s my hobby. And then every month or every eight weeks I go and visit my friend’s farm and hunt his feral pigs. He loses about 1,500 to 2,000 lambs a year to feral pigs. So we deal with them.

 

 

 

Replying to the person in this article...

 

I talked a bit about this in a post I made yesterday, but we do need some guns.  Hunters, especially in rural areas, provide a necessary service in keeping the animal populations down.  We cannot have deer breeding rampantly and wandering onto highways getting plowed into by cars, or getting into fields and destroying crops. 

 

So while I advocate better regulation of guns, I don't advocate elimination of guns entirely. They're a tool we need.

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4 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Replying to the person in this article...

 

I talked a bit about this in a post I made yesterday, but we do need some guns.  Hunters, especially in rural areas, provide a necessary service in keeping the animal populations down.  We cannot have deer breeding rampantly and wandering onto highways getting plowed into by cars, or getting into fields and destroying crops. 

 

So while I advocate better regulation of guns, I don't advocate elimination of guns entirely. They're a tool we need.

 

 

If Hot Fuzz is anything to go by, we'll still have guns in the country.

 

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Edited by Moiraine
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18 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

I can't remember if I posted it or just thought about it in my head. So throwing it out there (again?).

 

How about, you can't get a gun like that unless you have a hunting license, and maybe additionally, you can only have a limited number per hunting license in the household.

If you need a gun for self defense (most don't, and there are way more accidental deaths than bad guys killed), a "regular" gun should be enough to stop pretty much any intruder.

 

18 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Replying to the person in this article...

 

I talked a bit about this in a post I made yesterday, but we do need some guns.  Hunters, especially in rural areas, provide a necessary service in keeping the animal populations down.  We cannot have deer breeding rampantly and wandering onto highways getting plowed into by cars, or getting into fields and destroying crops. 

 

So while I advocate better regulation of guns, I don't advocate elimination of guns entirely. They're a tool we need.

That is the type of logical discussion that we need to have but it's also something that someone living in...say....the area where the school shooting was last week, isn't going to understand.  So, it's perfectly logical for them to believe we should either ban all guns or all semi-automatic guns..etc.

 

Another example is a rancher.  A gun is a tool a rancher uses for their jobs either to euthanize a suffering animal or to defend them from predators.  


This discussion is so difficult because we have such a wide range of lifestyles in this country and so many people don't understand or take the time to listen to people who aren't like them.

 

I personally like the idea that to buy a gun, a person has to go through a hunter safety course.  My son had to go through it to be able to hold a hunting license.  Why not have a similar type course for gun owners?  This would help prevent the person who has a time of rage in his life from going and buying a gun because he's angry and wants to do harm.  It wouldn't prevent it because if the guy is deranged enough, he could go through the course and still buy one.  But, it would help.

 

 

Edited by BigRedBuster
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25 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Replying to the person in this article...

 

I talked a bit about this in a post I made yesterday, but we do need some guns.  Hunters, especially in rural areas, provide a necessary service in keeping the animal populations down.  We cannot have deer breeding rampantly and wandering onto highways getting plowed into by cars, or getting into fields and destroying crops. 

 

So while I advocate better regulation of guns, I don't advocate elimination of guns entirely. They're a tool we need.

 

I think the problem you'll run into is you just will have republicans do what they tend to do with anything their overlords don't agree with, remove funding from whoever does the regulation.

 

I don't see any real problem with having licensing similar to Australia and having them be progressively more expensive and restrictive for things like semi automatic rifles, assault or otherwise along with requirements for having a gun safe before purchase.  Maybe add the title 2 firearms resale restrictions on semi-automatic rifles as well.  Making ownership transfers require tax stamps and ATF approval/records for people that are licensed.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with gun ownership for really any gun.  I have a problem with it being a god given right for every maladjusted idiot, uncaught criminal, and headcase in the country.  I liked gun rights as a kid, thought I wanted to be a member of the NRA one day, but it transitioned from being a sportsman's organization to stiring up a bunch of nutcases because that's where money is.

Edited by methodical
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9 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

That is the type of logical discussion that we need to have but it's also something that someone living in...say....the area where the school shooting was last week, isn't going to understand.  So, it's perfectly logical for them to believe we should either ban all guns or all semi-automatic guns..etc.

 

Another example is a rancher.  A gun is a tool a rancher uses for their jobs either to euthanize a suffering animal or to defend them from predators.  


This discussion is so difficult because we have such a wide range of lifestyles in this country and so many people don't understand or take the time to listen to people who aren't like them.

 

I personally like the idea that to buy a gun, a person has to go through a hunter safety course.  My son had to go through it to be able to hold a hunting license.  Why not have a similar type course for gun owners?  This would help prevent the person who has a time of rage in his life from going and buying a gun because he's angry and wants to do harm.  It wouldn't prevent it because if the guy is deranged enough, he could go through the course and still buy one.  But, it would help.

 

 

 

 

 

This is all entirely reasonable. Another thing is reasonable, I think, is to say that ranchers aren't the people shooting up schools.

 

The UK and Australia have done this particular part of this very well, I think. If you want a certain type of specialized weapon, or maybe if our culture ever gets there, if you just want a gun period, you demonstrate a legitimate use for it in addition to having reasonable training/licensing/yearly renewals. I wouldn't even say you need to demonstrate a need for it. Guns are fun. They're a fine tool for a lot of recreational activities that nobody has to do but really enjoy doing. That's cool. It would not be hard to write a law that allows for flexibility among the wide range of lifestyles you mentioned.

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14 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

That is the type of logical discussion that we need to have but it's also something that someone living in...say....the area where the school shooting was last week, isn't going to understand.  So, it's perfectly logical for them to believe we should either ban all guns or all semi-automatic guns..etc.

 

Another example is a rancher.  A gun is a tool a rancher uses for their jobs either to euthanize a suffering animal or to defend them from predators.  


This discussion is so difficult because we have such a wide range of lifestyles in this country and so many people don't understand or take the time to listen to people who aren't like them.

 

I personally like the idea that to buy a gun, a person has to go through a hunter safety course.  My son had to go through it to be able to hold a hunting license.  Why not have a similar type course for gun owners?  This would help prevent the person who has a time of rage in his life from going and buying a gun because he's angry and wants to do harm.  It wouldn't prevent it because if the guy is deranged enough, he could go through the course and still buy one.  But, it would help.

 

 

The great thing I saw last night at the town hall is that no one was calling for an outright ban on guns (Something which 99.99999% of Americans have never asked for), they simply want a change. They want something, anything to be done to curb the problem. They want AR style rifles off the street, there's no need for them. It's the weapon of choice for mass murderes so why don't we admit that and get rid of the problem? 

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The news simply reports what Trump says. It's not their fault he's said many conflicting things on guns.

 

 

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End gun-free zones in schools & military bases

On guns in school: Asked by Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) on whether she thought "guns have any place in or around schools," [Secretary of Education nominee Betsy] DeVos answered that the issue was "best left for locales and states to decide." In January 2016, Trump pledged to end gun-free zones in schools and military bases, telling a crowd, "I will get rid of gun-free zones on schools -- you have to -- and on military bases on my first day. It gets signed my first day. You know what a gun-free zone is to a sicko? That's bait." Asked whether she supported Trump's proposal to end gun-free zones, DeVos replied, "I will support what the president-elect does."

Source: Ballotpedia on 2017 Trump transition Confirmation Hearings , Jan 18, 2017

 

We need Supreme Court to stand up for the 2nd Amendment

We need a Supreme Court that in my opinion is going to uphold the Second Amendment, and all amendments, but the Second Amendment, which is under absolute siege. I believe if my opponent should win this race, which I truly don't think will happen, we will have a Second Amendment which will be a very, very small replica of what it is right now. But I feel that it's absolutely important that we uphold, because of the fact that it is under such trauma. The justices that I'm going to appoint will be pro-life. They will have a conservative bent. They will be protecting the Second Amendment. They are great scholars in all cases, and they're people of tremendous respect. They will interpret the Constitution the way the founders wanted it interpreted. And I believe that's very, very important.

I don't think we should have justices appointed that decide what they want to hear. It's all about the Constitution the way it was meant to be. And those are the people that I will appoint.

Source: Third 2016 Presidential Debate in Las Vegas , Oct 19, 2016

 

Appoint Supreme Court judges who respect 2nd amendment

Q: What would you prioritize as the most important aspect of selecting a Supreme Court justice?

TRUMP: People that will respect the US Constitution. Also, the Second Amendment, which is totally under siege by people like Clinton. They'll respect the Second Amendment and what it stands for, what it represents.

CLINTON: I respect the Second Amendment. But I believe there should be comprehensive background checks, and we should close the gun show loophole, and close the online loophole.

Source: Second 2016 Presidential Debate at Washington University , Oct 9, 2016

 

No guns for people on terrorist watch-list

CLINTON: I believe strongly that commonsense gun safety measures would assist us. Right now--and this is something Donald has supported, along with the gun lobby--right now, we've got too many military-style weapons on the streets. And we need to pass a prohibition on anyone who's on the terrorist watch list from being able to buy a gun in our country. If you're too dangerous to fly, you are too dangerous to buy a gun.

TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give certain rights to people on watch lists and no-fly lists. I agree with you. When a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA, which I'm very proud of--but I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists. And when people are on there, if they shouldn't be on there, we'll help them legally, we'll help them get off. But I tend to agree with that quite strongly.

Source: First 2016 Presidential Debate at Hofstra University , Sep 26, 2016

 

Buying lots of ammunition & body armor should be a red flag

Q: The shooter at the gay nightclub in Orlando would not have been stopped by any kind of temporary ban [on Muslim immigrants, as you have suggested, since he] was an American citizen. What policy would have kept this from happening?

TRUMP: Well, we have to report. The big thing that we're missing here is that people have to report when they see somebody. This man was pretty much unhinged. It was the gun store that did report him when he went in to buy all sorts of body armor and other things. They reported him to law enforcement, and, very sadly, nothing was done. It could have been prevented.

Q: But, in this case, he was investigated twice by the FBI, was taken off a list. There was no red flag.

TRUMP: Well, there were red flags, I mean, because when he walked in to buy all sorts of ammunition and body armor.

Q: Should somebody who goes in to buy that much ammunition get extra scrutiny?

TRUMP: Well, it depends. But [in this case the report], unfortunately, wasn't followed up.

Source: CBS Face the Nation 2016 interviews of presidential hopefuls , Jun 19, 2016

 

 

 

Mass shootings are due to a huge mental health problem

Q [to Gov. Christie]: In light of the recent South Carolina shootings, what is the harm in tightening standards for not only who buys guns, but those who sell them?

BUSH: We don't need to add new rules. We need to focus on what the bigger issue is: we should focus on is the violence in our communities. The other issue is mental health. Why not begin to deal with the process of mental health issues so that people that are spiraling out of control because of mental health challenges don't have access to guns.

TRUMP: What Jeb said is absolutely correct. We have a huge mental health problem in this country. We're closing hospitals, we're closing wards, we're closing so many because the states want to save money. We have to get back into looking at what's causing it. The guns don't pull the trigger. It's the people that pull the trigger and we have to find out what is going on. You get the Congress. You get the Senate. You get together. You do legislation.

Source: Fox Business 2016 Republican 2-tier debate , Jan 14, 2016

 

No limits on guns; they save lives

Q: Are there any circumstances that you think we should be limiting gun sales of any kind in America?

TRUMP: No. I am a 2nd amendment person. If we had guns in California on the other side where the bullets went in the different direction, you wouldn't have 14 or 15 people dead right now. If even in Paris, if they had guns on the other side, going in the opposite direction, you wouldn't have 130 people plus dead. So the answer is no and what Jeb said is absolutely correct.

Source: Fox Business 2016 Republican 2-tier debate , Jan 14, 2016

 

Keep enemies of the state away from guns

Q: You've talked about wanting to keep the terror watch list but, under current law, individuals on the terror watch list and the no-fly list have been allowed to buy guns and explosives. Are you OK with that?

TRUMP: We have to have a watch list, but we have the laws already on the books as far as Second Amendment for guns, if people are on a watch list or people are sick, this is already covered in the legislation that we already have,

Q: But under current law people on the watch list are allowed to buy guns.

TRUMP: If somebody is on a watch list and an enemy of state and we know it's an enemy of state, I would keep them away, absolutely.

Source: ABC This Week 2015 interviews of 2016 presidential hopefuls , Nov 22, 2015

 

Make concealed-carry permits valid across all states

I have a concealed-carry permit that allows me to carry a concealed weapon. I took the time and the effort to get that permit because the constitutional right to defend yourself doesn't stop at the end of your driveway. That doesn't apply just to me either. It applies to all our driveways or front doors.

That's why I'm very much in favor of making all concealed-carry permits valid in every state. Every state has its own driving test that residents have to pass before becoming licensed to drive. Those tests are different in many states, but once a state licenses you to drive, every other state recognizes that license as valid.

If we can do that for driving--which is a privilege, not a right--then surely we can do that for concealed carry, which is a right, not a privilege. That seems logical to me.

Source: Crippled America, by Donald Trump, p.110 , Nov 3, 2015

 

Gun-free zones are target practice for sickos

The gun-free zones are target practice for the sickos and for the mentally ill. They look for gun-free zones. The six soldiers that were killed. Two of them were among the most highly decorated, and they weren't allowed on a military base to have guns. And somebody walked in and shot them, killed them. If they had guns, he wouldn't be around very long. I can tell you, there wouldn't have been much damage. I think gun-free zones are a catastrophe. They're a feeding frenzy for sick people.

Source: GOP "Your Money/Your Vote" 2015 CNBC 1st-tier debate , Oct 28, 2015

 

Gun ownership makes US safer, not more dangerous

Q: You have a concealed weapons permit. Why?

TRUMP: Because I like to have myself protected.

Q: In the context of current gun violence, would you advise people to get that?

TRUMP: Well, I'm a big Second Amendment person. As an example, for the horrible thing that just took place in Oregon had somebody in that room had a gun, the result would have been better.

Q: So, should people get armed the way you are?

TRUMP: Well, that's up to them.

Q: What about teachers?

TRUMP: I think that if you had the teacher, assuming they knew how use a weapon, which hopefully they would, you would have been a lot better wh

Source: CBS Face the Nation 2015 interview by Bob Schieffer , Oct 11, 2015

 

Mental health more important than gun control

TRUMP: No matter what you do, guns, no guns, it doesn't matter. You have people that are mentally ill. And they're going to come through the cracks. And they're going to do things that people will not even believe are possible. And whether it's the school shootings, which are really very prevalent in this country. They seem to be more prevalent in this country.

Q: What's your explanation?

TRUMP: They're just sick people. They are mentally imbalanced.

Q: Do you think we have more mentally ill people than other countries?

TRUMP: I think what we have is I think we have copycats. I think they watch it and they see it here maybe more than other places.

Source: Meet the Press 2015 interview moderated by Chuck Todd , Oct 4, 2015

 

Laws are ineffective in preventing gun violence

Q: Should there be a sense of urgency on gun control?

TRUMP: The way I look at it, you take Chicago, you take Baltimore, you take various other places where you have tremendous gun violence and death, right? The strictest laws in the United States-- in the world-- for guns happens to be Chicago where they have a lot of problems. Baltimore, a lot of the places where you have the biggest problem is where they have the strongest laws. So I don't think it's about laws.

Q: But local laws without a national floor are pointless.

TRUMP: It really is mental health problem.

Q: You don't believe that we have too many guns?

TRUMP: Well, for example, the school at which the last mass shooting occurred was a gun-free zone and you were not allowed to have guns there. You could make the case that it would have been a lot better had people had guns because they could fire back.

Source: Meet the Press 2015 interview moderated by Chuck Todd , Oct 4, 2015

 

Gun violence is inevitable; regulations won't help

Q: Every country has mentally ill people, not every country has mass shootings as frequently as we do. What do you propose to do about it?

TRUMP: No matter what you'll do you have people that are mentally ill and they have problems and they're going to slip through the cracks.

Q: So no new gun laws?

TRUMP: Well, the gun laws have nothing to do with this. This isn't guns. This is about mental illness. You're always going to have difficulties, no matter how tight you run it. Even if you had great education having to do with mental illness, you educate the community, still you're going to have people that slip through the cracks. And these people are more than slipping through the cracks.

Source: ABC This Week 2015 interview by Martha Raddatz , Oct 4, 2015

 

Protect the Second Amendment, but address mental health

Q: You recently released a plan cast as protecting the Second Amendment, but you have also said that you think more needs to be done on the issue of mental health when it comes to people who are disturbed getting guns. Do you support the California law allowing judges to confiscate someone's gun if they are deemed to be a threat to themselves or others?

A: This is something to look into--people with mental health problems are on the streets who shouldn't be.

Source: CNN SOTU 2015 interview series: 2016 presidential hopefuls , Sep 20, 2015

 

Take guns from good people & bad people have target practice

Q: [With regards to a shooting in Lafayette, Louisiana] we have another case of someone with well-established mental health problems somehow able to legally buy a gun. What do you think needs to be done to stop this?

A: These are sick people. This has nothing to do with guns, this has to do with the mentality of these people. I'm a big Second Amendment person. I believe in it so strongly, and if you take the guns away from the good people, and the bad ones are going to have target practice.

Source: CNN SOTU 2015 interview series: 2016 presidential hopefuls , Jul 26, 2015

 

A very strong person on the Second Amendment

What does Donald Trump believe? Gun Control: Limit restrictions on guns. Ban some assault weapons & extend the waiting period for purchase.

During a 2013 interview, the real estate mogul defined himself as, "a very strong person on the 2nd Amendment." He believes guns are necessary for self-defense and has written that he generally opposes gun control. In his 2000 book, "The America We Deserve" Trump wrote that he supports a ban on assault weapons and a slightly longer waiting period to buy a gun.

Source: PBS News Hour "2016 Candidate Stands" series , Jun 16, 2015

 

I am against gun control

At the Conservative Political Action Conference, Trump took issue with Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, the libertarian-thinking lawmaker who set some Internet fundraising records with his 2008 presidential bid. "Ron Paul cannot get elected, I'm sorry," Trump said, calling him "a good guy" who has "zero chance" of getting elected. The remark about Paul prompted some boos and screams from some in the audience, some of them Paul supporters out in force to help their candidate win CPAC's presidential straw poll for the second year in a row.

In his CPAC speech, Trump sounded many themes popular with Republican conservatives. "I am pro-life," he said. "I am against gun control."

And in one of his biggest applause lines, Trump vowed to end the nation's health care law: "I will fight to end Obamacare and replace it with something that makes sense for people in business and not bankrupt the country." Trump also pledged not to raise taxes if elected.

Source: USA Today report on 2011 Conservative Political Action Conf. , Feb 10, 2011

 

Dems and Reps are both wrong on guns

It’s often argued that the American murder rate is high because guns are more available here than in other countries. Democrats want to confiscate all guns, which is a dumb idea because only the law-abiding citizens would turn in their guns and the bad guys would be the only ones left armed. The Republicans walk the NRA line and refuse even limited restrictions.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

 

For assault weapon ban, waiting period, & background check

I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

 

Opposes restrictions on right to bear arms.

Trump opposes the CC survey question on Second Amendment

The Christian Coalition Voter Guide inferred whether candidates agree or disagree with the statement, 'Further Restrictions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms' The Christian Coalition notes, "You can help make sure that voters have the facts BEFORE they cast their votes. We have surveyed candidates in the most competitive congressional races on the issues that are important to conservatives."

Source: Christian Coalition Survey 16_CC10 on Nov 8, 2016

 

 

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