Colin Kaepernick: dbag or not?

[Red Dead Redemption]

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Your rape analogy is lacking.

 

Is ck doing anything to stop the injustice he is protesting, or is he just making a scene in the hopes that someone ELSE will "do something"?

[Enhance]

 

Lochte's and Kaepernick's situations are not comparable in the least. One was surrounding a crime and falsifying a report - the other, last time I checked, was completely legal.

 

In regards to CK, I've never walked a day in his shoes, so I can't speak to his motivations. He felt they were reason enough to do what he did. He has that right, just as other people have the right to criticize him if they so wish.

 

The one thing I do find interesting here, as I mentioned in another thread, is that many of the people I see outraged by CK's choice (on my own personal Facebook/Twitter timelines) are the same people who claim the government is trying to squelch their religious freedoms and 1st Amendment rights. I don't want to go too deeply into a tangent here, but it seems like there is a lot of hypocrisy going on.

Let's not pretend that only applies to one side of this issue here, it applies to both sides. I took offense to what he did, but I also chose to defend my country as a veteran of the armed forces and find the anthem to be sacred. He's made millions because of the country he chooses to lash out against because he lives here. He wouldn't have that opportunity playing football in any other country. Once his career is over I'd hope he moves out of this country since he finds it so disgusting to make a point further.

First, thank you for your service. Second, I agree - it certainly does apply to both sides of the issue. I thought I made that part of my opinion more clear but I apologize. I just don't like seeing people throw stones in a glass house when it comes to 1st Amendment issues. Many people treat the 1st Amendment as it only being applicable to them, and the second someone else exercises their rights in a manner others don't seem fitting, it turns into a figurative bloodbath and calls for getting out of "this country."

 

Lastly, although I never served in our armed forces, my grandfather did. When I was younger, I remember asking him what he thought about flag burning. He said he thought it was disgusting, but also said he was proud to have served for a country that allows people to express themselves, even if he finds their expression offensive. He always told me it's OK to be offended, but your actions following that matter much more. If he were alive, he would've been offended by CK's actions, but I also know he would've spent much more time contemplating their purpose outside of just being angry about it.

 

What matters to me more now is if CK actually doesn't anything about all this. If he's just doing it to do it then shame on him. I want to see him take action against injustice, not passive aggressively talk about it.

[Landlord]

 

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Your rape analogy is lacking.

 

Is ck doing anything to stop the injustice he is protesting, or is he just making a scene in the hopes that someone ELSE will "do something"?

 

 

 

 

Speaking truth against power is doing something, but ignoring that, is he doing anything else? I don't know, and neither do you, so we should be hesitant with the stones that are so tempting to throw.

[Red Dead Redemption]

 

 

 

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Your rape analogy is lacking.

 

Is ck doing anything to stop the injustice he is protesting, or is he just making a scene in the hopes that someone ELSE will "do something"?

 

 

Speaking truth against power is doing something, but ignoring that, is he doing anything else? I don't know, and neither do you, so we should be hesitant with the stones that are so tempting to throw.

Anybody can throw a tantrum about anything. Even toddlers. I don't see that as actually doing something. And it certainly doesn't match your rape analogy. But your made up story about about you stopping a rape was just intended to stir up emotions and disturbing visualized images portraying you as the good guy without having actually done anything, so maybe it is a match?

[Landlord]

 

 

 

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Your rape analogy is lacking.

 

Is ck doing anything to stop the injustice he is protesting, or is he just making a scene in the hopes that someone ELSE will "do something"?

 

 

Speaking truth against power is doing something, but ignoring that, is he doing anything else? I don't know, and neither do you, so we should be hesitant with the stones that are so tempting to throw.

Anybody can throw a tantrum about anything. Even toddlers. I don't see that as actually doing something. And it certainly doesn't match your rape analogy. But your made up story about about you stopping a rape was just intended to stir up emotions and disturbing visualized images portraying you as the good guy without having actually done anything, so maybe it is a match?

 

 

 

How about this.

 

Would it be better if I talked about the rape publicly, or in your words that don't fit the kaepernick scenario, throw a tantrum, or if I leave to go to a party where there's no raping, since that's what the, "if you don't like it leave!" response frames as the options.

[Red Dead Redemption]

 

 

 

 

 

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Your rape analogy is lacking.

 

Is ck doing anything to stop the injustice he is protesting, or is he just making a scene in the hopes that someone ELSE will "do something"?

 

 

Speaking truth against power is doing something, but ignoring that, is he doing anything else? I don't know, and neither do you, so we should be hesitant with the stones that are so tempting to throw.

Anybody can throw a tantrum about anything. Even toddlers. I don't see that as actually doing something. And it certainly doesn't match your rape analogy. But your made up story about about you stopping a rape was just intended to stir up emotions and disturbing visualized images portraying you as the good guy without having actually done anything, so maybe it is a match?

 

How about this.

 

Would it be better if I talked about the rape publicly, or in your words that don't fit the kaepernick scenario, throw a tantrum, or if I leave to go to a party where there's no raping, since that's what the, "if you don't like it leave!" response frames as the options.

Thanks for admitting your analogy was lame.

 

What would be better is if ck notably actually did something, like Carmelo Anthony did as I mentioned in an earlier post, instead of just incite outrage with his polarizing actions and mischaracterizing soundbytes.

[BIGREDIOWAN]

 

 

"If you don't like it, then leave!" is a pretty dismissive and elementary response that doesn't really facilitate meaningful conversation. Not to mention it doesn't actually even bother to refute the argument made.

 

 

 

If Kaepernick really believes what he's saying he believes, why the hell would he leave the country instead of try to fix it? If I see a girl getting raped at a party and I don't approve, should I stop the rape or should I go to a party where people aren't raping women?

Can't be a meaningful conversation when only one side is willing to listen to the argument. That can be twisted towards one side or the other, but it appears to me that no one from the BLM side is willing to listen to the why from the police side. The police side has tried to work with the BLM folks all over the nation from border to border and bent over backwards for those protests to only have them go south. Society has to change as well as the police, I've said that time and time again, but the finger is ALWAYS pointed towards the police. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this issue isn't nearly as big as the issues with black-on-black killings and the societal issues the black community has, if those issues could be solved now you're really on your way to fixing things. Listen to Kaepernick's statement, it's all blame on the police, that's what I'm picking up from it anyways. Any use of force on African-Americans is instantly wrong anymore or at least that's the knee jerk reaction until the facts start to trickle out.

 

Agree with a few things you've posted in this thread, but a couple of points.

 

First, people are protesting the black-on-black killings, particularly in places like Chicago, where moms and families have rallied to keep their kids alive. It's even happened in Omaha. However, and forgive my language here, but that isn't nearly as fun or interesting to people as police on black killings or white on black violence. I do not literally mean there is anything "fun" about that - my point is people just really enjoy engaging in that particular debate and it gets far more media attention because of this. But, because you or other people don't see it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. There are also thousands of people across this country working tirelessly to improve conditions in the black community. But, you are right - black on black killings and societal issues are a big concern that seemingly gets forgotten and instead shifted toward police.

 

Second, and per another post of yours, I would argue CK's choice did accomplish something - it got people talking. I don't agree with the manner in which he went about it, personally, but I would argue it did do some of what he was hoping it would do.

 

Fair enough, I just want the microscope to be put on those issues across the board, not just with police issues. I'm not saying the police are perfect, they aren't, the bad eggs need to be weeded out, but there are always going to be some. My issue is that this is coming across as a large issue with police when it's not that large of an issue, I had the opportunity to help out several African-American males that were riding motorcycles when one broke down the other night. We didn't have any issues with one another and no one got shot. Probably because we were respectful with one another and listened to each other. We have to figure this out together, after all, this is the world we are going to be turning over to our children one day and we are currently raising them in this world which scares me at times.

 

 

 

Lochte's and Kaepernick's situations are not comparable in the least. One was surrounding a crime and falsifying a report - the other, last time I checked, was completely legal.

 

In regards to CK, I've never walked a day in his shoes, so I can't speak to his motivations. He felt they were reason enough to do what he did. He has that right, just as other people have the right to criticize him if they so wish.

 

The one thing I do find interesting here, as I mentioned in another thread, is that many of the people I see outraged by CK's choice (on my own personal Facebook/Twitter timelines) are the same people who claim the government is trying to squelch their religious freedoms and 1st Amendment rights. I don't want to go too deeply into a tangent here, but it seems like there is a lot of hypocrisy going on.

Let's not pretend that only applies to one side of this issue here, it applies to both sides. I took offense to what he did, but I also chose to defend my country as a veteran of the armed forces and find the anthem to be sacred. He's made millions because of the country he chooses to lash out against because he lives here. He wouldn't have that opportunity playing football in any other country. Once his career is over I'd hope he moves out of this country since he finds it so disgusting to make a point further.

First, thank you for your service. Second, I agree - it certainly does apply to both sides of the issue. I thought I made that part of my opinion more clear but I apologize. I just don't like seeing people throw stones in a glass house when it comes to 1st Amendment issues. Many people treat the 1st Amendment as it only being applicable to them, and the second someone else exercises their rights in a manner others don't seem fitting, it turns into a figurative bloodbath and calls for getting out of "this country."

 

Lastly, although I never served in our armed forces, my grandfather did. When I was younger, I remember asking him what he thought about flag burning. He said he thought it was disgusting, but also said he was proud to have served for a country that allows people to express themselves, even if he finds their expression offensive. He always told me it's OK to be offended, but your actions following that matter much more. If he were alive, he would've been offended by CK's actions, but I also know he would've spent much more time contemplating their purpose outside of just being angry about it.

 

What matters to me more now is if CK actually doesn't anything about all this. If he's just doing it to do it then shame on him. I want to see him take action against injustice, not passive aggressively talk about it.

 

Agreed, both of your posts make good points. +1 for both of them.

[suh_fan93]

Not.

[Count 'Bility]

1st, one of the dynamics that makes this country so frickin awesome is the he has the right to do what he did. Good for him.

 

But.

 

I also have the right to call him a complette f'ing dooshbag. And that maybe he should remember that he is still a citizen of this country. Making a sh#t ton of this country's currency, to play a GAME invented in this country. I fail to see his ideals behind. I fail to see the ideals in all of this newfound "American Apologist" bullsh#t going on. I dont like a lot of things going on either. But I still love my country. It's still the greatest country on the planet. Bottom frikin line. I dont blame the country for our problems. Blame the ppl that cause them.

 

This is why I'm a Trump, aside from the fact that I can handle the brashness and have the brains to be able to look past ridiculous comments he makes and get inside his true message. That to truly fix things, we have to make America first again. Which includes ALL AMERICANS.

 

Kapernick, if you dont like it, and dont want to pledge your allegience as a citizen, and honor those who came before you to make it possible for you to have this incredible life, then I demand you in the kindest of way, get the f#*k out and go play in frickin Canada.

 

Count out.

[knapplc]

I agree with that, Count. I more disagree with CK than agree with him, probably 80/20, but I support his right to protest.

 

Just like I support someone's right to burn the flag. I think they're a douchebag for burning it, but I support their right to do it.

 

It's a weird world to live in sometimes.

[zoogs]

I thought SI had a good article on this today: http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/08/29/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-meaning-history

Defining patriotism through a flag or a song—and, worse, believing that everyone should do so—is to exchange true patriotism for tinhorn vaudeville.

I mean, look at all this anger here. It really is "Stand up or you hate America, and we hate you." How odd. Anyone is free to that attitude, of course, just as much as it is free to be open to criticism.

[Count 'Bility]

I agree with that, Count. I more disagree with CK than agree with him, probably 80/20, but I support his right to protest.Just like I support someone's right to burn the flag. I think they're a douchebag for burning it, but I support their right to do it.It's a weird world to live in sometimes.

no Knapp. Its not weird. Its perfectly fine. The problem is were becoming a society that doesnt want to think. That cant think. So we can distinguis these interesting dynamics of everyday life that used to be seen as "normal". Ppl have become so opiniated to the extreme that they are incapable of seeing the true answer that is more times than not in the middle. Im guilty of it myself at times. Probably with this very Kaepernick issue. Im pretty extreme to one side here and probably wont budge. Im pretty convinced hes wrong. When in all actuality, he does have some points. I dont think hes portraying them in a good light. His actions are not helping. Actions of things like black lives matter are not helping. Its only causing further tension. Further division. The stake is being drivin deeper. While i continue to pray for a proper solution.

[Count 'Bility]

I thought SI had a good article on this today: http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/08/29/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-meaning-history

 

 

Defining patriotism through a flag or a song—and, worse, believing that everyone should do so—is to exchange true patriotism for tinhorn vaudeville.

 

I mean, look at all this anger here. It really is "Stand up or you hate America, and we hate you." How odd. Anyone is free to that attitude, of course, just as much as it is free to be open to criticism.

so now its ok to honor america by Not honoring america? Its something i just dont understand. Pledging ypur allegiance and honoring is NOT something that should be negotiable or cones with exception. A lot of thi gs do. A lot of things require some give and tale. But honoring your flag as a citizen of the country shouldnt be one. You either do or you dont. And to dont is completely wrong. Like is earlier. You have issues? Thats fine. So do i. But dont blame the country. Dont blame the flag. Blame the ppl. I believe they are exclusive of each other.

[zoogs]

And why should he, or anyone else, bow to these demands of the PC crowd?

 

Really, though. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to say "I can't be proud of this country in the present climate". Just as you may or may not think his concerns are legitimate or his threshold for pride is reasonable.

 

He's hurting nobody but the easily offended. And on the scale of douchebaggery, he's not exactly peeing in a bowl of cheerios on the 4th of July, either. These are sports games (heck, it's the preseason). And while I, personally, am not really the protester type, I can see where he's coming from. If I were an NFL player galled at the degree to which the country is indifferent or even actively opposed to acknowledging racial injustice, then becoming disillusioned with this whole not-mandatory-but-mandatory-wink-wink nationalism contest might be one of the first things I'd struggle with. It's creepy and maybe I just can't indulge in such frequent, full-throated displays of rah rah.

 

*But I'm not, and as much as I can try to empathize, I also can't escape the fact that this racial injustice cannot possibly hit home for me in the way it might for black (biracial or not!) Americans. Again. Not a condoning of his methods. Hopefully we can see, though, how these might be terribly confusing times to navigate. They're equally confusing, I imagine, for white folks who are seeing the rapid erosion of their privilege and supremacy in America.

[knapplc]

I've been saying this since this controversy began. Didn't realize so many other people thought this, too.

 

http://www.sfchronicle.com/49ers/article/Is-the-national-anthem-even-necessary-9191779.php?t=941d9ef2177d4f3860&cmpid=twitter-premium