Trump's America

[RedDenver]

24 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I dunno, I think it has to be true for all men based on my observations. Every time I tell Elaida I like his hair he goes the next day to get it shaved.

Wait, "goes to get it shaved"? Learn to shave or grow a beard, man! 

[RedDenver]

7 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

When I've needed to verify facts for this thread, I've gone to Google and found a range of estimates and conclusions from a variety of sources.

 

It begs the question: where is the administration's cost/benefit analysis on building a wall? It's a huge outlay of taxpayer money on a complicated issue, with a lot of physical, personnel, and sociological components. American corporations conduct extensive studies on much smaller initiatives before committing the money, and they better have good vetted numbers and rationale to show their boards and shareholders. 

 

Since we have our first businessman/president, a border wall should come with a pretty clear and clean cost/benefit analysis. Even a junior staffer could churn out a decent PowerPoint presentation given a week or two.

 

Did I miss something, or is there absolutely nothing business-like to back up Trump's proposal/demand? 

There's also been no ecological or environmental impact studies. One of my biggest logistical questions is whether the wall will make flooding worse since much of the border region is prone to flash floods. And FYI, even a fence can make flooding worse (or affect the movement of the water non-obvious ways).

[Moiraine]

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Wait, "goes to get it shaved"? Learn to shave or grow a beard, man! 

 

 

Talking about his head. He gets some kind of military cut. Sometimes he shaves it bald though. 

[Moiraine]

9 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

When I've needed to verify facts for this thread, I've gone to Google and found a range of estimates and conclusions from a variety of sources.

 

It begs the question: where is the administration's cost/benefit analysis on building a wall? It's a huge outlay of taxpayer money on a complicated issue, with a lot of physical, personnel, and sociological components. American corporations conduct extensive studies on much smaller initiatives before committing the money, and they better have good vetted numbers and rationale to show their boards and shareholders. 

 

Since we have our first businessman/president, a border wall should come with a pretty clear and clean cost/benefit analysis. Even a junior staffer could churn out a decent PowerPoint presentation given a week or two.

 

Did I miss something, or is there absolutely nothing business-like to back up Trump's proposal/demand? 

 

 

 

This makes my point better than I was making it.

 

I’m really not sure if illegal immigration is a net negative with what we’re currently doing at the border, but even if it is, I don’t believe there’s any way a wall is going to benefit us enough to be worth the cost. It just seems like a moronic idea.

[B.B. Hemingway]

5 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

This makes my point better than I was making it.

 

I’m really not sure if illegal immigration is a net negative with what we’re currently doing at the border, but even if it is, I don’t believe there’s any way a wall is going to benefit us enough to be worth the cost. It just seems like a moronic idea.

 

Bah. Take it out of the (ridiculous amout of) $50 billion we spend on foreign aid every year.

[Moiraine]

Just now, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Bah. Take it out of the (ridiculous amout of) $50 billion we spend on foreign aid every year.

 

 

I would wager we get a higher benefit to cost from that than we would from a stupid wall. Note: That doesn’t mean I think all of the foreign aid we give is a good idea.

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I would wager we get a higher benefit to cost from that than we would from a stupid wall. 

 

[Danny Bateman]

It seems like there's some apples and oranges comparisons in here. As far as whether illegal immigration is a net negative, B.B. and StPaul seem like you're talking about the morality involved in following or breaking the law, whereas Moiraine focused on the overall effects of illegal immigration on the country as a whole. You can all be right - I thought everyone made valid points.
 

Personally I think the wall is a really stupid waste of money. As far as that Mr. Ortiz, even good people can have stupid, flawed ideas. Using him is a bit of an appeal to authority argument, isn't it?
 

The whole thing is a good case study in not believing automatically believing something just because someone powerful told it to you. Like the migrant caravan that magically became a crisis right before elections. Did anyone with half a brain really believe that was an emergency?

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Moiraine has a point.

 

One hell of a lot of our foreign financial aid is done to secure relationships and countries we need access to to supply our need for things like oil.  

 

Now....we seem to have some people who want to get rid of the foreign aid and at the same time, do away with any funding of alternative energies.  This seems to be a combination that doesn't go well together.

 

Another point that needs to be made about this entire issue.  Years ago, we started deporting illegals who were involved with gang activity.  I think we can all agree that this was a good idea.  However, what that did was deport those gangs to places like Honduras where they have thrived and terrorized the entire country.  NOW...we have families fleeing those areas where the gangs are powerful....and fleeing to the US.  That's what's making up a large portion of these caravans we are currently seeing.  It's not gang members trying to get in...the vast majority is families trying to flee the gangs we deported to their country.

 

Well...there's a very strong argument to be made ( and I would support it) to now help places like Honduras deal with these issues.  If we can help them deal with the gangs and drug lords, families would not be fleeing at the rate they are to the US.

 

It's easy to proclaim foreign aid needs to stop, but there are consequences to those actions.

[B.B. Hemingway]

7 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Moiraine has a point.

 

One hell of a lot of our foreign financial aid is done to secure relationships and countries we need access to to supply our need for things like oil.  

 

Now....we seem to have some people who want to get rid of the foreign aid and at the same time, do away with any funding of alternative energies.  This seems to be a combination that doesn't go well together.

 

Another point that needs to be made about this entire issue.  Years ago, we started deporting illegals who were involved with gang activity.  I think we can all agree that this was a good idea.  However, what that did was deport those gangs to places like Honduras where they have thrived and terrorized the entire country.  NOW...we have families fleeing those areas where the gangs are powerful....and fleeing to the US.  That's what's making up a large portion of these caravans we are currently seeing.  It's not gang members trying to get in...the vast majority is families trying to flee the gangs we deported to their country.

 

Well...there's a very strong argument to be made ( and I would support it) to now help places like Honduras deal with these issues.  If we can help them deal with the gangs and drug lords, families would not be fleeing at the rate they are to the US.

 

It's easy to proclaim foreign aid needs to stop, but there are consequences to those actions.

 

 

I didn't suggest foreign aid  cease altogether. I simply, half-heartedly of course, suggested dipping into those excessive (in my opinion) funds. 

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

 

I didn't suggest foreign aid to cease altogether. I simply, half-heartedly of course, suggested dipping into those excessive (in my opinion) funds. 

 

So, you agree that we get benefit from foreign aid.  What evidence do you have that we are spending too much on it?  What country do you think we should pull money out of and what affects do you think that would cause?

[Guy Chamberlin]

Building walls instead of bridges is usually a pretty profound metaphor, but we literally need to be building bridges instead of walls according to the American infrastructure. Makes business sense, too.

[Guy Chamberlin]

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that this whole wall fiasco is based on an idiot president trying to keep a ham-fisted campaign promise to people who don't understand the issue at all. 

[Ulty]

2 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that this whole wall fiasco is based on an idiot president trying to keep a ham-fisted campaign promise to people who don't understand the issue at all. 

[Moiraine]

3 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that this whole wall fiasco is based on an idiot president trying to keep a ham-fisted campaign promise to people who don't understand the issue at all. 

 

 

Except it's not a campaign promise. He promised Mexico would pay for it.