Dems Rebuild

[Moiraine]

19 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Not sure why your link is apple.news, but here's the direct link to that article:

Pennsylvania nail-biter offers midterm lesson for Democrats

 

EDIT: I think the opinion espoused in the article is misleading. It's basically saying the Dems shouldn't go left but instead go moderate. However, a better take-away is that the Dems should match candidates to the districts, and the best way to do that is have primaries and let the voters decide who best matches their own district.

 

 

Reminds me of the Nebraska Democratic candidate who was pro-life and got a lot of flack from national Democrats.

 

To win as a Democrat in Nebraska you probably have to have someone like that. That doesn't mean the party as a whole should change nationally.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Moiraine

[knapplc]

17 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

It's basically saying the Dems shouldn't go left but instead go moderate. However, a better take-away is that the Dems should match candidates to the districts, and the best way to do that is have primaries and let the voters decide who best matches their own district.

 

I get the last sentence in my quote, but the reality is that I want the bold. I don't want Democrats in office any more than I want Republicans in office. I want moderates in office, a fair mix of both parties (since that's our model of government for the foreseeable future), and I want them to work together. 

 

I'm in the camp of hoping for a Blue Wave this fall, but that's only because the Republicans have gone over to the dark side. If/When the Dems get in office, I'm going to be watching them like a hawk, too. 

[QMany]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:29 PM, TGHusker said:

All of this is very confusing given that the new tax law is supported by a majority of the American people and is growing in popularity.

 

The Hill link cited says "less than 40 percent of Americans approve of the bill." Forbes definition of majority must be different from mine.

[RedDenver]

Just now, knapplc said:

 

I get the last sentence in my quote, but the reality is that I want the bold. I don't want Democrats in office any more than I want Republicans in office. I want moderates in office, a fair mix of both parties (since that's our model of government for the foreseeable future), and I want them to work together. 

 

I'm in the camp of hoping for a Blue Wave this fall, but that's only because the Republicans have gone over to the dark side. If/When the Dems get in office, I'm going to be watching them like a hawk, too. 

I don't want Dems or Repubs either, but I also don't want all moderates/centrists. I want a mix of right, left, center, and others that's at least an approximate representation of their voters' policy desires as I don't really care about the labels. (But I can't figure out a better way to talk about politics, so I'm stuck using them.)

 

There's also the problem of the definition of a moderate or a centrist. Both of those terms are relative measures to the left and the right, and the Overton window in the US has been moving steadily right for decades. For example, Bernie Sanders is probably considered pretty far left by most people in the US (and on this board), but he's generally considered very close to dead-center on the entire political spectrum:

 

And if you want to say that the image I've posted is just an opinion, then I agree and it's a big part of why saying "left", "right", "moderate", "center", etc. is problematic.

[knapplc]

I agree with that.  Basically, my idea of good government is representatives using common sense, compromise and compassion. 

[RedDenver]

Just now, knapplc said:

I agree with that.  Basically, my idea of good government is representatives using common sense, compromise and compassion. 

Agreed.

[BigRedBuster]

14 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

For example, Bernie Sanders is probably considered pretty far left by most people in the US (and on this board), but he's generally considered very close to dead-center on the entire political spectrum:

 

I have a hard time thinking Bernie is dead center when he is a self proclaimed socialist.

[Moiraine]

A representative represents his/her constituents.

 

Not the people who throw money at him/her.

 

But a representative should also be smarter than his/her average constituent, and not make choices solely on what they want but also consider what they and the country need.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Moiraine

[RedDenver]

56 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

I have a hard time thinking Bernie is dead center when he is a self proclaimed socialist.

Depends on whether you think "socialism" is strictly on the left, and how left you think socialism makes a person. For example, central planning is a farther left concept associated with communism but not all versions of socialism. (EDIT: And Eisenhower, a stalwart Republican, created the interstate system, which is a central planning concept.) OTOH, the military can be seen as a socialist institution on the right.

 

It's all about how we define these terms. And a lot of it is how they're defined in our culture that we grew up with. For example, Bernie would be a more moderate lefty in Great Britain where Jeremy Corbyn is farther to the left.

Edited March 14, 2018 by RedDenver

[TGHusker]

RD,  I'd like to see the underlining assumptions, positions that the chart is built on.  Like BRB, Bernie is not a center of the world candidate.   I do agree that our 'filters' have moved more right in recent decades but even with that, I have a hard time seeing Bernie as the ideal center.  Seems the chart was made of Bernie supporters. 

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

RD,  I'd like to see the underlining assumptions, positions that the chart is built on.  Like BRB, Bernie is not a center of the world candidate.   I do agree that our 'filters' have moved more right in recent decades but even with that, I have a hard time seeing Bernie as the ideal center.  Seems the chart was made of Bernie supporters. 

You can read about the ideas and assumptions for those charts on: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

I don't really have a dog in the fight of whether Bernie is really center or not. My point is that we need to be aware of what "moderate" or "center" (or "left" or "right" for that matter) mean, and also that these labels are limited. I'd much rather debate specific policies, laws, actions, etc. and whether they help or hurt our country and its citizens than try to label whether those things are "left, "right", "center" and whether that makes them "good" or "bad" positions.

[TGHusker]

2 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You can read about the ideas and assumptions for those charts on: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

I don't really have a dog in the fight of whether Bernie is really center or not. My point is that we need to be aware of what "moderate" or "center" (or "left" or "right" for that matter) mean, and also that these labels are limited. I'd much rather debate specific policies, laws, actions, etc. and whether they help or hurt our country and its citizens than try to label whether those things are "left, "right", "center" and whether that makes them "good" or "bad" positions.

I agree wt the bold.  

[BigRedBuster]

24 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Depends on whether you think "socialism" is strictly on the left, and how left you think socialism makes a person. For example, central planning is a farther left concept associated with communism but not all versions of socialism. (EDIT: And Eisenhower, a stalwart Republican, created the interstate system, which is a central planning concept.) OTOH, the military can be seen as a socialist institution on the right.

 

It's all about how we define these terms. And a lot of it is how they're defined in our culture that we grew up with. For example, Bernie would be a more moderate lefty in Great Britain where Jeremy Corbyn is farther to the left.

 

As I've said on here before, all of society has a certain level of socialism.  It's just the way life is.  

However, to be true center, I would assume a person at that point would understand positives and negatives of both capitalism and socialism....and understand there are parts of society where one works better than the other.

 

I don't see that in Bernie.  I can not imagine Bernie ever giving a speech where he explains a situation where capitalism is a good system.

[knapplc]

I'll believe a lot of things, but Bernie Sanders as a centrist is not one of them.

[TGHusker]

25 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You can read about the ideas and assumptions for those charts on: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

I don't really have a dog in the fight of whether Bernie is really center or not. My point is that we need to be aware of what "moderate" or "center" (or "left" or "right" for that matter) mean, and also that these labels are limited. I'd much rather debate specific policies, laws, actions, etc. and whether they help or hurt our country and its citizens than try to label whether those things are "left, "right", "center" and whether that makes them "good" or "bad" positions.

I took the quiz on the compass site.  My results:

Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -0.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.46

For some reason I couldn't get the chart to post on here.  But that is just to the left of center of right vs left and

2 and a half squares below center on the libertarian vs authoritarian line.   Just 2 lines to the right of Jill Stein!!

So I don't think it is a good measurement and that becomes evident as I read the questions.

 

In reading the questions, I detected some left leaning assumptions and also some 'all or nothing' assumptions that would

steer the results leftward. 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by TGHusker