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It's about being a nation of laws. It's about nations having borders. It's about nations defending those borders against Invaders. These Invaders commit felony after felony that harm real Americans. If one of them stole your kid's SSN and ruined her credit, I bet you'd be less inclined to be as sympathetic. 

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21 minutes ago, dudeguyy said:

 

Is that what this is all about?

 

Because they're real people, whether you agree with them being here or not.

Bingo. Gave the game away here. It's not about <generic sweet-sounding pablum here>, it's about not seeing people as real people -- and given that they have less-than-human status, feeling morally free to pursue them to whatever end.

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Casting a broad net over illegals as lawless felons is the exact bs I'm talking about that makes it hard to even start the conversation. Again, the FACTS are illegal immagrants commit felonies and crimes that "hurt real people" (violence, sexual assualt, drugs, what have you) at a lesser rate than citizens and thats even if you break that down into ethnicity. And it makes sense, most illegal immagrants aren't looking to cause trouble and end up back where they started. People try to come here legally but the fact of that matter is it is very difficult to come here legally in a timely manner without a large sum of money. People don't have time to wait around in these places people are coming from.

 

Alot of times, "illegals" were also once here legally but their visa has expired. Alot of these people are highly skilled contributors to our society. Alot of people who just came here for better opportunity are good hard working contributors to our society. Its a more complex issue than well they are all criminals get them the hell out. 

Edited by Nebfanatic
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10 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Or build a wall and make it impossible for illegals to find employment and housing while making them completely ineligible for welfare benefits. They'll self-deport soon enough once the gravy train runs out. 

Care to back up your implications that illegal immigrants are collecting welfare, and to what extent?

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9 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

Casting a broad net over illegals as lawless felons is the exact bs I'm talking about that makes it hard to even start the conversation. Again, the FACTS are illegal immagrants commit felonies and crimes that "hurt real people" (violence, sexual assualt, drugs, what have you) at a lesser rate than citizens and thats even if you break that down into ethnicity. And it makes sense, most illegal immagrants aren't looking to cause trouble and end up back where they started. People try to come here legally but the fact of that matter is it is very difficult to come here legally in a timely manner without a large sum of money. People don't have time to wait around in these places people are coming from.

 

Alot of times, "illegals" were also once here legally but their visa has expired. Alot of these people are highly skilled contributors to our society. Alot of people who just came here for better opportunity are good hard working contributors to our society. Its a more complex issue than well they are all criminals get them the hell out. 

 

Identity theft hurts real people. Illegals commit it as a matter of course. Tell Kate Steinle’s family how warm, fuzzy, and harmless illegals are. 

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1 hour ago, ZRod said:

Care to back up your implications that illegal immigrants are collecting welfare, and to what extent?

 

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The US Census Bureau’s latest “survey of income and program participation” shows that 62 percent of illegal-immigrant-headed households are on the federal dole — more than double the rate for households headed by native-born Americans. And that includes households where one or more workers are present in the household.

Their use of US welfare is highest for food stamps and Medicaid, data show.

Though welfare use among illegal immigrants is much more associated with children, “childless illegal households still use some welfare programs at surprisingly high rates,” Camarota pointed out.

Some collect federal benefits through fraud or administrative errors or through green-card holders. But in the case of Medicaid, pregnant women illegally in the country can sometimes be enrolled in the program.

There is also an Emergency Medicaid program that covers predominantly illegal immigrants. Funds from the multibillion-dollar program go to hospitals to offset the cost of treating adult illegal aliens who can’t pay their bills. And it’s not just for ER visits. In New York, the program can be used to provide chemotherapy and radiation therapy for illegal immigrants.

In addition, Camarota said the IRS each year pays out billions to illegal immigrants in refundable child tax credits and the earned income tax credit. 

https://nypost.com/2018/03/10/cutting-welfare-to-illegal-aliens-would-pay-for-trumps-wall/

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

 

 

An article with the main source being one person who works for The Center for Immigration Studies. A quick Google search and look at their website shows they are extremely anti immigrant and even the Cato Institute (of Koch brothers fame} calls out the methods used to gather the "data" cited, or more accurately not cited. Most glaringly the research disregard mixed immigration status households where one spouse or member is here legally. That took me less than 5 minutes to gather... 

 

You also conveniently left this part out of the article. Pretty sure it means a US citizen is receiving those benefits, and it doesn't even say illegal immigrant households. So they could be entirely legal benefits.

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“A large share of the welfare used by immigrant households is received on behalf of their US-born children,” Camarota said. 

 

Edited by ZRod
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44 minutes ago, ZRod said:

An article with the main source being one person who works for The Center for Immigration Studies. A quick Google search and look at their website shows they are extremely anti immigrant and even the Cato Institute (of Koch brothers fame} calls out the methods used to gather the "data" cited, or more accurately not cited. Most glaringly the research disregard mixed immigration status households where one spouse or member is here legally. That took me less than 5 minutes to gather... 

 

You also conveniently left this part out of the article. Pretty sure it means a US citizen is receiving those benefits, and it doesn't even say illegal immigrant households. So they could be entirely legal benefits.

 

 

Attacking the source? Pathetic. Surrender noted. Here’s another one. Illegals cost us a ton of money. At least be honest about it.

 

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At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels.

https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

 

When people come here illegally and have children, often called “anchor babies,” they then receive benefits through their children. That’s a big part of the scheme and it costs American taxpayers billions of dollars a year.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Attacking the source? Pathetic. Surrender noted. Here’s another one. Illegals cost us a ton of money. At least be honest about it.

 

When people come here illegally and have children, often called “anchor babies,” they then receive benefits through their children. That’s a big part of the scheme and it costs American taxpayers billions of dollars a year.

Using a poor source? Pathetic. Surrender noted.

 

Also, illegal immigrants actually help the US economy overall:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html

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There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isn’t much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants — those here legally or not — benefit the overall economy. “That is not controversial,” Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that “there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.”

 

The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund.

 

 So saying, "Illegals cost us a ton of money," is not only wrong but the opposite of what's really happening.

 

A better economic argument for opposing illegal immigration is that while illegal immigrants are good for the overall economy, the benefits aren't evenly distributed. From the same article:

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Illegal immigration does have some undeniably negative economic effects. Similarly skilled native-born workers are faced with a choice of either accepting lower pay or not working in the field at all. Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent.

 

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As an aside @Ric Flair I appreciate your candor and willingness to have a back and forth about this & other issues here, even if I disagree with your positions.  I would like it if everyone felt comfortable coming into P&R and sharing their opinions even if others disagree with them. It's a shame that people tend to give up so easily rather than defending an unpopular opinion.

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