Jump to content

The Environment


Recommended Posts


2 hours ago, TGHusker said:

Interesting article about the rise of electrical vehicles and the potential shortage of lithium to run them as well as the potential environmental hazards of mining for the needed battery component.  So the million $$ question is how do we meet the environmental goals of clean air, while preserving the environment of the land and water?

Is there another type of battery being developed to take the place of a lithium battery?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research

 

 

Just Google Lithium battery alternatives. There's quite a few different materials that are potentially viable alternatives to an Li battery. Long term I don't think this is anymore of an issue than leaded fuel. OEMs aren't going to want to deal with tight supply chains for crucial raw materials. I can also confirm that they are very much aware of the environmental impact lithium mining has, and would like to reduce that foot print.

 

1 hour ago, TGHusker said:

I am wondering what the latest developments are on the hydrogen car :dunno  Perhaps a H car would place less demand on lithium mining as the power isn't coming from just the battery.  The battery is used more for storage of energy and not as much for powering the vehicle - if I understand correctly. 

 

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-fuel-cell-electric-cars-work

 

 

Hydrogen car image

 

How Do Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Work Using Hydrogen?

Like all-electric vehicles, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) use electricity to power an electric motor. In contrast to other electric vehicles, FCEVs produce electricity using a fuel cell powered by hydrogen, rather than drawing electricity from only a battery. During the vehicle design process, the vehicle manufacturer defines the power of the vehicle by the size of the electric motor(s) that receives electric power from the appropriately sized fuel cell and battery combination. Although automakers could design an FCEV with plug-in capabilities to charge the battery, most FCEVs today use the battery for recapturing braking energy, providing extra power during short acceleration events, and to smooth out the power delivered from the fuel cell with the option to idle or turn off the fuel cell during low power needs. The amount of energy stored onboard is determined by the size of the hydrogen fuel tank. This is different from an all-electric vehicle, where the amount of power and energy available are both closely related to the battery's size.

 

 

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/fuel_cell.html

How Fuel Cells Work

 

The most common type of fuel cell for vehicle applications is the polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cell. In a PEM fuel cell, an electrolyte membrane is sandwiched between a positive electrode (cathode) and a negative electrode (anode). Hydrogen is introduced to the anode, and oxygen (from air) is introduced to the cathode. The hydrogen molecules break apart into protons and electrons due to an electrochemical reaction in the fuel cell catalyst. Protons then travel through the membrane to the cathode.

The electrons are forced to travel through an external circuit to perform work (providing power to the electric car) then recombine with the protons on the cathode side where the protons, electrons, and oxygen molecules combine to form water. See the Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) infographic(PDF) to learn more about the process.

Hydrogen has a couple of issues:

 

1) There's really no infrastructure for it. Which is a similar complaint with BEVs but it would mean essentially building new gas stations with better safety than current petrol stations since this is a gaseous substance and not a liquid.

2) Hydrogen can never be a zero emissions vehicle because the byproduct is water. Which sounds great, but H20 is actually a greenhouse gas as well.

3) Efficiency. Onboard fuel cells simply aren't as efficient as a battery for the potential energy that is being stored in the vehicle. Battery energy loss is minimal (I think less than 10% depending ambient temps), hydrogen is about 75% efficient, and IC engines are somewhere between 25 to 40% efficient. So both BEV and fuels cells are a step up, but BEVs is superior.

 

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

I think you found the perpetual energy machine.

 

Back-to-the-future GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

"Shotgun on 4th and 1 at the goal line!  WHAT THE f#&%"

 

5 minutes later a Space shuttle that was not even set for launch and was no longer in working condition takes off and flies into orbit. 

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Yes that 'really explosive' thing might be a problem when a fender bender occurs.   I use to work in the industrial gas business.  Hydrogen is a tricky gas to work with

This is a non issue. Both gasoline and Li batteries are volatile when their "fuel cells" are punctured. Li is probably the most dangerous as it start to combust when exposed to oxygen. Hydrogen and gasoline need an ignition source to combust. Hydrogen being a gas has the advantage of dissipating more rapidly, but has more potential energy than gas (aka more explosive).

Link to comment

9 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Hydrogen can never be a zero emissions vehicle because the byproduct is water. Which sounds great, but H20 is actually a greenhouse gas as well.

 

I had forgotten that.  

 

So....how does that work this time of year in Nebraska?  All those cars driving down the interstate dropping water out the back and freezing?

Link to comment
7 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I had forgotten that.  

 

So....how does that work this time of year in Nebraska?  All those cars driving down the interstate dropping water out the back and freezing?

It wouldn't be drastically different than today. Burning a gallon of gasoline produces about a gallon of water, if the combustion were 100% efficient. Some of that you see out the tail pipe as liquid, most is probably vapor.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, TGHusker said:

Interesting article about the rise of electrical vehicles and the potential shortage of lithium to run them as well as the potential environmental hazards of mining for the needed battery component.  So the million $$ question is how do we meet the environmental goals of clean air, while preserving the environment of the land and water?

Is there another type of battery being developed to take the place of a lithium battery?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research

 

 

As someone else mentioned, we're going to have to mine stuff no matter what. The article seems to ignore their own point that lithium can be recycled, which would reduce the need to mine it by 90% from the worst-case scenarios given. It's one of the biggest advantages of using batteries instead of a fuel - the materials in the battery are still there at end of life and can be recycled. It's not economical to recycle lithium from batteries yet but a bunch of companies are working on it.

 

5 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I've also never heard anyone explain what millions of electric cars will do to our existing electrical grid, which has plenty of issues already. 

Probably stabilize it since EV's can be smart and charge overnight or during peak solar/wind. I only charge my EV 1-2 times per week at around 8 kW, which is roughly the equivalent of turning on 2-3 electric ovens, but doesn't really need to charge that fast. Future EV's could have bidirectional power and send energy back to the house or grid (the Ford F-150 Lightning can already do this). There are also companies working on being able to buy and sell grid power using your home batteries based on power company requirements and markets, which could also be done with bidirectional power EV's. There are a ton of options and we already have the technology to do it.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, TGHusker said:

I am wondering what the latest developments are on the hydrogen car :dunno  Perhaps a H car would place less demand on lithium mining as the power isn't coming from just the battery.  The battery is used more for storage of energy and not as much for powering the vehicle - if I understand correctly. 

 

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-fuel-cell-electric-cars-work

 

 

Hydrogen car image

 

How Do Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Work Using Hydrogen?

Like all-electric vehicles, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) use electricity to power an electric motor. In contrast to other electric vehicles, FCEVs produce electricity using a fuel cell powered by hydrogen, rather than drawing electricity from only a battery. During the vehicle design process, the vehicle manufacturer defines the power of the vehicle by the size of the electric motor(s) that receives electric power from the appropriately sized fuel cell and battery combination. Although automakers could design an FCEV with plug-in capabilities to charge the battery, most FCEVs today use the battery for recapturing braking energy, providing extra power during short acceleration events, and to smooth out the power delivered from the fuel cell with the option to idle or turn off the fuel cell during low power needs. The amount of energy stored onboard is determined by the size of the hydrogen fuel tank. This is different from an all-electric vehicle, where the amount of power and energy available are both closely related to the battery's size.

 

 

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/fuel_cell.html

How Fuel Cells Work

 

The most common type of fuel cell for vehicle applications is the polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cell. In a PEM fuel cell, an electrolyte membrane is sandwiched between a positive electrode (cathode) and a negative electrode (anode). Hydrogen is introduced to the anode, and oxygen (from air) is introduced to the cathode. The hydrogen molecules break apart into protons and electrons due to an electrochemical reaction in the fuel cell catalyst. Protons then travel through the membrane to the cathode.

The electrons are forced to travel through an external circuit to perform work (providing power to the electric car) then recombine with the protons on the cathode side where the protons, electrons, and oxygen molecules combine to form water. See the Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) infographic(PDF) to learn more about the process.

Hydrogen passenger vehicles are a terrible idea compared to batteries for a bunch of reasons. Not least of which is that they are far more inefficient. They might make sense at the size of a train or ship, but I'm skeptical even then.

Link to comment

3 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

I had forgotten that.  

 

So....how does that work this time of year in Nebraska?  All those cars driving down the interstate dropping water out the back and freezing?

While water vapor is a greenhouse gas, adding more of it to the atmosphere isn't actually possible. The amount of water vapor is dependent on the temperature of the atmosphere, so adding more water vapor will just cause more condensation and doesn't actually cause a build up of water vapor.

https://iedro.org/articles/water-vapor-and-global-warming/

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

While water vapor is a greenhouse gas, adding more of it to the atmosphere isn't actually possible. The amount of water vapor is dependent on the temperature of the atmosphere, so adding more water vapor will just cause more condensation and doesn't actually cause a build up of water vapor.

https://iedro.org/articles/water-vapor-and-global-warming/

So, more humidity?  Or, could this cause more rain if enough energy hs converted over to this?

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

So, more humidity?  Or, could this cause more rain if enough energy hs converted over to this?

Probably some of each but I doubt enough to be noticeable by people. The amount of water vapor being added would be small compared to the entire atmosphere since it wouldn't be accumulating over time like CO2 does. Maybe more dew in the mornings is my guess.

Link to comment
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...