Trump and His Wall

[Oade]

I won't disagree with the point you make. That's a fair view.

 

But to the point about Texas' "frequent' death penalty.... I'd just point out that less than 1% of all of Texas' murder cases end with an execution, both historically speaking and at the current rates. That's debating schematics though, and not relevant, a moot point.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

Regarding illegal immigration, this baffles me. When you compare the cost to the U.S. from illegal immigration to the benefit, the U.S. receives far more than it pays. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most forms of entitlements - President Clinton closed that door with his program on welfare reform, on which he campaigned. While a few individuals will attempt to gain benefits through fraudulent means, the overwhelming majority do not - they keep their heads down, do their jobs, send most of their earnings to family back in Mexico, and try to avoid at all costs any behaviors that would draw the attention of the government or law enforcement. For those who have babies born in the U.S., and remain, those children adapt the culture and language of the U.S. They do work that almost no Americans will do. They give more to the economy than they take. They almost never commit crimes. They want their children to acclimate the culture, do well in school, and become good citizens. And we want to keep them out...why?

 

Very interesting perspective AR, and I appreciate your thoughts. The subject of the wall is very interesting to me, and if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate here for the sake of some healthy discussion, I feel like these thoughts are a bit short-sighted. Yes, there are certainly an abundance of Mexican citizens who come to this country to work hard, send money back to their families, and to do the jobs that many others will not. But, to say that a "few individuals will attempt to gain benefits through fraudulent means" is really minimizing the impact that those individuals have. I wish that it were only a few, but that's not the case. Also, the statement that the children adapt to the US culture and language is partially true, but there are a lot of examples of that not being the case. The number of ESL classes that we have here in the SW would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'm always interested in the perspective of others, especially those who do not live in border states. Here in Arizona, we have a fairly terrible reputation (a lot of it deserved) about our perceived racism towards Mexican citizens. However, living here definitely provides a different perspective on illegal immigration than those who do not live here will usually have. We have some very serious issues and challenges in this state due to illegal immigration, challenges that I don't believe that a giant wall will necessarily help. But, to state that the issues are few really does not seem accurate to me.

 

Again AR, not attacking your perspective. Your statements are always intelligent and well presented, and I appreciate that. I just thought I'd provide some contrary thoughts and opinions in the effort for good, healthy debate.

 

To the bolded:

 

Can you please explain how the number of ESL classes indicates that the children are not adapting to US culture and language?

 

I'll see what research I can find, but this is really from my personal experience of going to high school in southern California and raising kids here in Arizona. From our experience, there was absolutely no effort made in ESL classes to adapt to US culture, language, etc. Classes were taught entirely in Spanish, the curriculum was even changed to reflect Mexican culture and history. I'm not sure how this is showing any effort to make those adaptations.

 

Again, just my opinion based on personal experience. To be fair, I've also had the opportunity to meet many Mexican families who have done an amazing job adapting to the US culture. So, it's really a matter of how much emphasis the parents put on it.

 

I live in an area of Nebraska with a pretty high hispanic population. There is a town fairly close to me where white people are now the minority when you take into account Hispanic, Somalian...etc. immigrants. The school has adapted a lot towards the type of students they are teaching. My home town has a very high number of hispanic kids themselves.

 

These kids tend to be some of the most amazing bilingual children. I give a talk to the seniors every year about how to become employable. I stress how these kids who are bilingual are much more valuable to a company than people who are not.

 

These kids talk fluent english even though some came at a very early age from Mexico. Some of these kids are some of the smartest kids in the school.

 

If you were to move your family to Mexico, it would take you a very very long time to learn Spanish fluently. It's just a fact that most adults have a hard time becoming bilingual if it isn't done at a very early age. That doesn't mean you spurn the Mexican culture.

 

On the flip side, Nebraska has many European cultures that are very proud of their heritage. Eustis is proud of German....etc. These home country cultures should not be squashed because they aren't eastern european. They should be welcomed and made part of our own.

[knapplc]

I won't disagree with the point you make. That's a fair view.

 

But to the point about Texas' "frequent' death penalty.... I'd just point out that less than 1% of all of Texas' murder cases end with an execution, both historically speaking and at the current rates. That's debating schematics though, and not relevant, a moot point.

 

The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent. It doesn't work.

 

The wall is supposed to be a deterrent. Why will it work?

[teachercd]

Here's an idea after this stupid wall is built. Make it very easy for immigrants to become citizens. However, I propose a 1/1 exchange. For every 1 Mexican that we let into the US who (the vast majority) are hard working, family oriented and just want to better their lot in life and take care of their families, we send TO Mexico a piece of crap white trash that doesn't provide any noticeable benefit to society.

Ha! This is awesome!

[AZRaiderH8r]

 

 

 

 

Regarding illegal immigration, this baffles me. When you compare the cost to the U.S. from illegal immigration to the benefit, the U.S. receives far more than it pays. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most forms of entitlements - President Clinton closed that door with his program on welfare reform, on which he campaigned. While a few individuals will attempt to gain benefits through fraudulent means, the overwhelming majority do not - they keep their heads down, do their jobs, send most of their earnings to family back in Mexico, and try to avoid at all costs any behaviors that would draw the attention of the government or law enforcement. For those who have babies born in the U.S., and remain, those children adapt the culture and language of the U.S. They do work that almost no Americans will do. They give more to the economy than they take. They almost never commit crimes. They want their children to acclimate the culture, do well in school, and become good citizens. And we want to keep them out...why?

 

Very interesting perspective AR, and I appreciate your thoughts. The subject of the wall is very interesting to me, and if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate here for the sake of some healthy discussion, I feel like these thoughts are a bit short-sighted. Yes, there are certainly an abundance of Mexican citizens who come to this country to work hard, send money back to their families, and to do the jobs that many others will not. But, to say that a "few individuals will attempt to gain benefits through fraudulent means" is really minimizing the impact that those individuals have. I wish that it were only a few, but that's not the case. Also, the statement that the children adapt to the US culture and language is partially true, but there are a lot of examples of that not being the case. The number of ESL classes that we have here in the SW would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'm always interested in the perspective of others, especially those who do not live in border states. Here in Arizona, we have a fairly terrible reputation (a lot of it deserved) about our perceived racism towards Mexican citizens. However, living here definitely provides a different perspective on illegal immigration than those who do not live here will usually have. We have some very serious issues and challenges in this state due to illegal immigration, challenges that I don't believe that a giant wall will necessarily help. But, to state that the issues are few really does not seem accurate to me.

 

Again AR, not attacking your perspective. Your statements are always intelligent and well presented, and I appreciate that. I just thought I'd provide some contrary thoughts and opinions in the effort for good, healthy debate.

 

To the bolded:

 

Can you please explain how the number of ESL classes indicates that the children are not adapting to US culture and language?

 

I'll see what research I can find, but this is really from my personal experience of going to high school in southern California and raising kids here in Arizona. From our experience, there was absolutely no effort made in ESL classes to adapt to US culture, language, etc. Classes were taught entirely in Spanish, the curriculum was even changed to reflect Mexican culture and history. I'm not sure how this is showing any effort to make those adaptations.

 

Again, just my opinion based on personal experience. To be fair, I've also had the opportunity to meet many Mexican families who have done an amazing job adapting to the US culture. So, it's really a matter of how much emphasis the parents put on it.

 

 

My sister-in-law has taught/developed ESL programs (Spanish, Vietnamese, Filipino, Chinese) in SoCal (LA, SD, Yuma, SG Valley) and a few years ago moved to Phoenix to do the same. Her biggest criticism is the fly-by judgement of those NOT in ESL, especially of Spanish in AZ. It literally is exactly as you stated. As with anything else, it's easy to judge when you're on the outside.

 

Students generally move through ESL and assimilate at a very good rate overall. You would probably see that if you looked at the numbers provided by your school/school district.

 

That's awesome to hear! And good for your sister-in-law; I really appreciate the effort that teachers like her are making to help kids. As I said, this was only my experience; clearly, not every school district runs ESL the same way. A good friend of ours is an ESL teacher and she does an incredible job with her students. I was simply sharing my experience, not making a broad statement against all ESL programs.

 

As for the wall itself, I really don't believe that it is going to be a viable solution. If anything, it will likely make it more difficult for people who want to come to this country to work, provide for their families, etc. to get in. But, the "bad guys" will still find a way in.

[Landlord]

I refuse to post in this thread until Oade stops spelling border like a communist

[Oade]

 

I won't disagree with the point you make. That's a fair view.

 

But to the point about Texas' "frequent' death penalty.... I'd just point out that less than 1% of all of Texas' murder cases end with an execution, both historically speaking and at the current rates. That's debating schematics though, and not relevant, a moot point.

 

The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent. It doesn't work.

 

The wall is supposed to be a deterrent. Why will it work?

 

 

 

Anything used at less than a 1% rate can hardly be referred to as a deterrent imo. Life in Prison would be a better example of a deterrent, because that is actually used at a respectable rate..... However looking at Texas' murder numbers, nothing seems to have greatly disrupted the pattern in Texas' murder rate since 1994. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm ---- By comparison, to date and since 1819, 1,295 individuals have been executed in the state of Texas. 1,295 people have been executed by the state in a 200 year time-span, yet that number of murders happens regularly in one year alone. That's a poor example of a deterrent imo.

 

What happened in 1994? The Federal Death Penalty Act & Federal Assault Weapons Ban..... AKA: The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, H.R. 3355, originally written by Senator Joe Biden, presented to congress by Texas Congressman Jack Brooks, and passed by Bill Clinton.

 

Was that Death Penalty Act a perfect answer? No.

Did it help? Clearly.

 

Will a wall solve the entire issue? No.

Will it help? That is yet to be determined, but I can see the potential benefit.

[Oade]

I refuse to post in this thread until Oade stops spelling border like a communist

 

 

I think I already did. I can fix them if it helps you.

[Landlord]

Being described as a deterrent is the best case scenario for the death penalty. If that's not what it's supposed to be, then it's just supposed to be a needless, expensive antiquity.

[NM11046]

BTW speaking of executions - did anybody else see what MS proposed today? Firing squads and more. We officially have turned back the clock.

[Oade]

Being described as a deterrent is the best case scenario for the death penalty. If that's not what it's supposed to be, then it's just supposed to be a needless, expensive antiquity.

 

 

The death penalty is not designed to be a deterrent, and nothing more than a deterrent - if it was it would be enforced at a much higher rate..... Its supposed to be justification/defense for an otherwise defenseless victim. If that fact gives potential murders pause before killing someone, then that's just icing on the cake.

[Oade]

BTW speaking of executions - did anybody else see what MS proposed today? Firing squads and more. We officially have turned back the clock.

 

Yeah thats really creepy. I can't imagine any cops who would want to be a part of that. Hopefully that doesn't gain any momentum.

[Danny Bateman]

AZRaider, I'd argument that kids and families shouldn't be forced to assimilate if they choose not to. BRB kind of hit on it a little bit. Sure, they should probably learn English because it's going to be very hard to be functional in society here without doing so, but beyond that, I'm all for them being as culturally Mexican as they want (or any other immigrant, for that matter). The town I lived in back in Iowa had a large Hispanic population. A lot of my friends still had families that were largely not assimilated. A lot of their parents worked at the Farmland plant in our town. Heck, I remember going out to a friend's house to hang out and seeing a giigantic side of beef on their counter. First time I'd ever seen one of those. But me, I loved their culture and being exposed to lots of different stuff. It shaped me into who I am today. That's just me and I get we're all different.

 

What are those other serious issues/challenges you refer to in regards to immigration? I'm curious to hear more about your perspective.

 

IMO, the wall is a stupid waste of money that serves very little functional purpose beyond placating a portion of Trump's base that believes it's going to magically stop every illegal and stifle the cartel. We've got plenty of other infrastructure that would actually provide value we could build/repair with that amount of cash.

Building a wall to address illegal immigration is idiotic if we're not going to try to fix the immigration system first.

[funhusker]

Assimilation?

 

Henderson, NE didn't allow prom and dancing because of the German Mennonite culture until 1999. The gas station at the edge of town finally started selling beer a few years ago, still none in town as far as I know, not even the golf course.

 

The school band has a "smorgasbord" fundraiser of German cuisine and the town loves it.

 

I'm assuming people are okay with Henderson because I've never heard anyone complain about it. A lot of the times when I talk about it with others around Omaha, they actually say it is kinda cool that the culture is still present. Why is it okay for Germans to hold onto their cultures, but not Mexicans?

[It'sNotAFakeID]

If we're going to build an ineffective wall, can we at least make it out of solar panels?