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The First Trump Impeachment Thread


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2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

@Whistlebritches @NM11046 @Nebfanatic

 

All very valid points.  

 

What if British intelligence (our biggest ally) comes up with proof Trump sold his soul to Russia and the information wasn't gathered even from an American but through spying on Russia?

Would you be OK with that being given to Jo Biden?

I think they would share it with the CIA and/or FBI.  They way I believe it should be.

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4 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

@Whistlebritches @NM11046 @Nebfanatic

 

All very valid points.  

 

What if British intelligence (our biggest ally) comes up with proof Trump sold his soul to Russia and the information wasn't gathered even from an American but through spying on Russia?

Would you be OK with that being given to Jo Biden?

No.  It should be shared with the appropriate agencies or law makers.  (not sure but I think international stuff is CIA).  

 

I even go back and forth about the Steele info being given to McCain, and it wasn't meant to influence an election.  AND I think the intent there was very good (based on the concerns they had of involvement of higher ups in agencies in the Trump coverup, which is why McCain took it to the agencies directly to hand deliver it).  And lord knows what specifics exist in that document that shows who is involved.

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3 hours ago, NM11046 said:

Pretty darn clear - can't take money, info or anything else from a foreign power no matter the office you run for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, it's illegal huh? Sure it is. I mean we have so much evidence of our President being punished for having already done it.

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I know some folks don't like talking about this, but the United States has blatantly wielded influence in foreign elections around the globe ever since we had influence to wield, and some of it's been far uglier than a bit of dirt on Hillary Clinton. If cornered, Donald Trump just might be crazy enough to point this out. 

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4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I know some folks don't like talking about this, but the United States has blatantly wielded influence in foreign elections around the globe ever since we had influence to wield, and some of it's been far uglier than a bit of dirt on Hillary Clinton. If cornered, Donald Trump just might be crazy enough to point this out. 

I don't think he has to be cornered to point it out, nor do I think pointing out our own history should be taboo.

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12 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I know some folks don't like talking about this, but the United States has blatantly wielded influence in foreign elections around the globe ever since we had influence to wield, and some of it's been far uglier than a bit of dirt on Hillary Clinton. If cornered, Donald Trump just might be crazy enough to point this out. 

seems to me is that when we did it it was to benefit the united states.   and if that is true...wouldn't it also be true that if russia meddled in our elections they did it for their benefit rather than our benefit?  

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16 minutes ago, commando said:

seems to me is that when we did it it was to benefit the united states.   and if that is true...wouldn't it also be true that if russia meddled in our elections they did it for their benefit rather than our benefit?  

 

That's the general idea.

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39 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I know some folks don't like talking about this, but the United States has blatantly wielded influence in foreign elections around the globe ever since we had influence to wield, and some of it's been far uglier than a bit of dirt on Hillary Clinton. If cornered, Donald Trump just might be crazy enough to point this out. 

Doesn't mean we should be ok with Russia fiddling with ours.

 

Or, what my mom would call, "If your friend jumped off a bridge would you too?" (but in reverse)

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2 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Doesn't mean we should be ok with Russia fiddling with ours.

 

Or, what my mom would call, "If your friend jumped off a bridge would you too?" (but in reverse)

 

Agree, but that still means you can flip the argument: if we're so upset that a foreign government would dare meddle in our election, should we more vigilant about our own meddling? Being the country that champions democracy? 

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31 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Agree, but that still means you can flip the argument: if we're so upset that a foreign government would dare meddle in our election, should we more vigilant about our own meddling? Being the country that champions democracy? 

 

 

We can argue whether it’s wrong to try to influence foreign elections, but even if it is wrong and we’ve done it, we should fight tooth and nail against it happening to us. It’s not relevant in any way shape or form whether we’ve done it to others. That has no bearing on how we should react to it happening to us. Trump can and has made the argument before, I’m pretty sure, but it’s a bad argument, like most he makes. 

 

It’s not about whether what we or Russia is doing is morally wrong. It’s about what’s best for the U.S. as a country. In conversations about foreign countries meddling in U.S. elections, all that matters is what’s best for the U.S. What we’ve done to others is not relevant in the conversation.

 

Furthermore, a lot of our meddling was in order to open the door for a more democratic government (that happened to be better for the U.S.) So in that way it was an attempt to champion democracy. The results have often been bad though.

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30 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

We can argue whether it’s wrong to try to influence foreign elections, but even if it is wrong and we’ve done it, we should fight tooth and nail against it happening to us.

Of course we should.

 

30 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

It’s not relevant in any way shape or form whether we’ve done it to others. That has no bearing on how we should react to it happening to us.

This makes no sense. History and context do matter. It's like saying that someone punching you in the face has no relevance to you punching them in the face. One possible reaction is for us to stop punching people in the face because then they might be inclined not to do it to us.

 

30 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

Furthermore, a lot of our meddling was in order to open the door for a more democratic government (that happened to be better for the U.S.) So in that way it was an attempt to champion democracy. The results have often been bad though.

The US has toppled democratically elected governments in order to put friendly dictators into power, so that argument doesn't really hold much weight.

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19 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Of course we should.

 

This makes no sense. History and context do matter. It's like saying that someone punching you in the face has no relevance to you punching them in the face. One possible reaction is for us to stop punching people in the face because then they might be inclined not to do it to us.

 

The US has toppled democratically elected governments in order to put friendly dictators into power, so that argument doesn't really hold much weight.

In the context of the argument being had this doesn't make that much sense. If Trump wants to make the argument that its ok if Russia influences the election in his favor because we influence other elections that is simply ludicris. One may be morally wrong(us doing it to others) but the other is against the law in the US.

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26 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Of course we should.

 

This makes no sense. History and context do matter. It's like saying that someone punching you in the face has no relevance to you punching them in the face. One possible reaction is for us to stop punching people in the face because then they might be inclined not to do it to us.

 

The US has toppled democratically elected governments in order to put friendly dictators into power, so that argument doesn't really hold much weight.

 

 

The history and context of our meddling does not matter when it comes to how we deal with meddling in our own country. We should know going into meddling with others that they might do it to us, but when they do it, how we react to it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether we’ve done it to others or not. We should put a stop to it and defend ourselves regardless.

 

This isn’t a discussion of the right and wrong of the thing. It’s a discussion of how we defend ourselves against other countries meddling. The argument that we should be less upset about it happening to us or less vigilant in stopping it based on whether we’ve done it before is asinine. We protect our country’s current self interests regardless of what crimes or immoral things we’ve done in the past. 

 

Our meddling in the past matters when it comes to choosing whether to meddle in the future. We should make these decisions based on whether it helped us in the past or whether we now think it’s immoral behavior. That’s where the past is relevant. Not in how we deal with other countries doing it to us.

 

 

It does hold weight, but I said a lot of the time. I also said it has had bad results.

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