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The First Trump Impeachment Thread


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16 minutes ago, Redux said:

The only thing frustrating is being talked at and talked down to.  People want to converse and try to offer perspectives, all for it.  Act like a human being, and some are.  But then there are the standard who get off on being right.  Who NEED to look like a scholar to maintain rep in front of the rest.

 

You say you don't like politics. You admit you haven't read anything related to the subject of this thread, nor watched any hearings, nor do you care to. Yet here you are, demanding to be treated as knowledgeable as those of us who have. And when you say things like "no evidence," and people scoff, you pop off with stuff like this.

 

I don't know jack about Recruiting. But to emulate you I should go to those threads, tell everyone how disinterested I am in recruits, talk about how five star guys haven't shown me anything after admitting I've never watched film on them, and then I should demand to be treated with respect and complain when those who actually do their homework don't value my opinion.

 

Think about that.

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Why take the time to try and offer perspective to someone who has admitted that they don't care and don't/won't spend their time learning about a thing? And who still already has their mind made up? 

 

You do and always have brought that condescension on yourself. 

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7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

Why take the time to try and offer perspective to someone who has admitted that they don't care and don't/won't spend their time learning about a thing? And who still already has their mind made up? 

 

I get your point, and there are a lot of folks I've washed my hands of. But I like Redux.

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55 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

You say you don't like politics. You admit you haven't read anything related to the subject of this thread, nor watched any hearings, nor do you care to. Yet here you are, demanding to be treated as knowledgeable as those of us who have. And when you say things like "no evidence," and people scoff, you pop off with stuff like this.

 

I don't know jack about Recruiting. But to emulate you I should go to those threads, tell everyone how disinterested I am in recruits, talk about how five star guys haven't shown me anything after admitting I've never watched film on them, and then I should demand to be treated with respect and complain when those who actually do their homework don't value my opinion.

 

Think about that.

 

I don't like that people get so personal about politics.  If it were simple adult discussion, I would be much more interested in it.  I don't like that the way our political system thrives off of bickering and divisive tactics from the media and the news.  I'm not wasting my time reading and watching hours upon hour upon hours of Impeachment hearings and biased  news sources because frankly life is too short to waste my time investing in something that has little entertainment value and a very low expected shot at succeeding.

 

I'm not demanding to be treated as knowledgeable at all, I'm pleading to be treated like a human being.  A lot of you in here emulate the piranhas you see on TV whether you want to admit it or not.  In my stupid opinion, the evidence presented is mostly insinuations.  Granted, I haven't followed it closely and my last real dive into it was almost 2 weeks ago.  What I've read and what I've seen and what I've heard from both sides, doesn't make the Democrats look good.  Until I come in here.  I come in here and it's an entirely different world.  I actually admire the devotion a lot of you pour into it, I just don't care for the attitude that goes with it.  It's human nature I suppose to look down on someone you find ignorant or less studied than yourself.  I'm guilty of that too.  But it amazes me that the anti Trump crowd is so eager to have arguments with fence riders while the pro Trump side is much more willing to converse.  That's a lot of the reason you seem to think I'm so staunch right wing.

 

Now for your analogy.  I can appreciate that.  And I'm sure it miffs you and others quite a bit when someone like myself wanders in and disagrees with the status quo.  And I'm well aware I don't budge from my opinions easily, nor should I.  Why be so eager to change your thoughts?  I'd rather someone have to work to change my mind on an issue, just not in a condescending way.  I typically reject what people say if they start talking at me instead of to me, regardless of what they are saying.

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12 minutes ago, Landlord said:

Why take the time to try and offer perspective to someone who has admitted that they don't care and don't/won't spend their time learning about a thing? And who still already has their mind made up? 

 

You do and always have brought that condescension on yourself. 

 

At least he's in the discussion.  You just come in and make obnoxious back handed comments aimed at the poster not the post.  Remember when that used to be a thing we were supposed to NOT do?

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2 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

I don't like that people get so personal about politics.  If it were simple adult discussion, I would be much more interested in it.  I don't like that the way our political system works thrives off of bickering and divisive tactics from the media and the news.  I'm not wasting my time reading and watching hours upon hour upon hours of Impeachment hearings and biased  news sources because frankly life is too short to waste my time investing in something that has little entertainment value and a very low expected shot at succeeding.

 

I'm not demanding to be treated as knowledgeable at all, I'm pleading to be treated like a human being.  A lot of you in here emulate the piranhas you see on TV whether you want to admit it or not.  In my stupid opinion, the evidence presented is mostly insinuations.  Granted, I haven't followed it closely and my last real dive into it was almost 2 weeks ago.  What I've read and what I've seen and what I've heard from both sides, doesn't make the Democrats look good.  Until I come in here.  I come in here and it's an entirely different world.  I actually admire the devotion a lot of you pour into it, I just don't care for the attitude that goes with it.  It's human nature I suppose to look down on someone you find ignorant or less studied than yourself.  I'm guilty of that too.  But it amazes me that the anit Trump crowd is so eager to have arguments with fence riders while the pro Trump side is much more willing to converse.  That's a lot of the reason you seem to think I'm so staunch right wing.

 

Now for your analogy.  I can appreciate that.  And I'm sure it miffs you and others quite a bit when someone like myself wanders in and disagrees with the status quo.  And I'm well aware I don't budge from my opinions easily, nor should I.  Why be so eager to change your thoughts?  I'd rather someone have to work to change my mind on an issue, just not in a condescending way.  I typically reject what people say if they start talking at me instead of to me, regardless of what they are saying.

 

So much here that I'm not going to respond to because... OK.

 

But when you say this:  "Granted, I haven't followed it closely and my last real dive into it was almost 2 weeks ago.  What I've read and what I've seen and what I've heard from both sides, doesn't make the Democrats look good."

 

It makes me wonder - where are you getting your information?  What sources? You want to have an adult conversation, then please, like an adult, tell us where you're getting this from.  Because the bold doesn't make sense, and the entire quote is... interesting.

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3 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

At least he's in the discussion.  You just come in and make obnoxious back handed comments aimed at the poster not the post.  Remember when that used to be a thing we were supposed to NOT do?

 

Totally, that's just what I do. Ya caught me. Look at all this evidence of me not being in discussions.

 

 

On 12/2/2019 at 4:07 PM, Landlord said:

It's not a russian hoax, the report was on russian interference in our election and Trump's involvement/knowledge. A very real thing that went through a very legitimate investigation.

 

The 25th amendment hasn't been brought up in any official capacity. Although it should be.

 

The emoluments clause also hasn't been brought up in any official capacity. Although it should be.

 

On 12/2/2019 at 2:35 PM, Landlord said:

I'm still confused how the Democrats, who have followed the law and rules of conduct the whole time through this, are the desperate ones who flubbed it up?

 

Because Republican congresspeople refuse to be disloyal to Trump even though it's wreaking havoc on our country and our elections, let's blame the Democrats who are actually trying to hold a criminal accountable?

 

On 12/1/2019 at 10:52 PM, Landlord said:

But do you think Trump is guilty of impeachable offenses? Generally speaking. Do you think he's fit for office? Has he worked within the confines of the Constitution? 

 

I agree it was the best thing they had to go off of, but I also believe with mountain ranges of evidence that they should go after that best thing, because Trump is incompetent and criminal and treasonous. 

 

You have referenced how you think the Democrats come across as desperate. If they didn't go this route, even though a large part of America was calling for it and media was reporting on it, would you and/or others think, "Oh good on those Democrats not overreacting"? Or would it be something more along the lines of, "The Democrats are so dysfunction/scared/weak/do nothing that they didn't even impeach when they had the chance."?

 

Republicans talk to you because they think you're on their team and that you agree with them. 

 

Those same Republicans talk at "Libs". The fact that you've extrapolated this personal little anecdote out into some indictment and implication that the conservative folks across the way are nicer because they talk nice and are kind and the liberals are all a$$h@!es is kind of crazy to me. And before you quote me and say, "I never said that", you honestly just explained that the actual reason you're more conservative is because conservatives are nicer and liberals are mean. lmao.

 

I go back to Nebraska about 3-4 times a year. I can argue either side of a point and often do at the bars for fun. When I affirm arguments with old crotchety republicans, they're very nice to me. Very agreeable, very pleasant to talk to (despite some of the horrific s#!t that can come out of their mouths), and even open to devil's advocate scenarios if I start out presenting as if we're on the same team. But if I argue progressive counterpoints from the start, they get heated, dismissive, rude, and try to put down and stifle conversation. And yes, liberals do the same thing. 

 

On 12/1/2019 at 7:14 PM, Landlord said:

If anything, they look the opposite of desperate, because they know there's a 99% chance that even if the house impeaches the Senate won't follow through. 

 

What, in your opinion, has looked desperate? I've seen constant, by the books, proper and rule following code of conduct throughout this entire process by Pelosi/Schiff. They've acted as professionals, they've gone after relevant and straightforward testimony, they haven't gotten distracted or off topic or misled.

 

Trump/Guilliani/Fox News on the other hand are acting like the guy in a pickup basketball game who points and yells "oh my god look at that!" to distract you while they drive to score. The defenses and the arguments and the rationale change by the hour. Kind of like stories do when you're lying. I don't know what or who you mean by 'dems' specifically, and I don't know in what specific ways you find them to be desperate. Seems like a vague 'feeling', or like a talking point narrative. 

 

On 11/27/2019 at 8:47 PM, Landlord said:

Big businesses want regulations to choke out competition. ie, they only want regulations when there is competition. If they have monopolized a market, then they'll fight to get rid of every regulation possible. 

 

There is no such thing as "regulations = good" or "regulations = bad" across the board. And often the attempts in one way or the other can have unintended consequences and backfire to certain extents. But it's a damn important area to be mindful in and dedicated to good policy on.

 

On 11/27/2019 at 6:18 PM, Landlord said:

It's fine that you think so, but you haven't given a why. Why should it be up to the local district to decide? Would they make a better decision? If so, why would they but not the fed? 

 

I'm inviting you to give compelling reasons for your opinions instead of just the opinions themselves. I'm open to a good argument based on evidence of those decisions being more effective and less wasteful and better for citizens when they're done "locally".

 

Terrible info disseminated by the federal govt because deep pockets representing dairy, bread, corn, milk, meat, tobacco, so on and so forth are able to write blank checks to officials, and then lean on them when it counts afterwards in a way that benefits them but is harmful to the public. This is one part of reality that 'generic' deregulation/conservative/libertarian behavior and ideology creates. 

 

On 11/27/2019 at 2:54 PM, Landlord said:

Parents can still do that. Hooray for freedom!

 

You don't think locally powerful and power-seeking bureaucrats can be just as out of touch as the ones in D.C.? I mean I generally agree with a lot of principles of libertarianism but the way you're arguing for them makes them... not very compelling or convincing, especially because you're not following the actual conviction of your beliefs.

 

What local community? The state? The county? The town? The school board? The individiual school? Who's involved in the decision making process? How do the decisions get passed? What info are they based on?

You haven't provided any reason why the "local" people could or would do it better or more efficiently or in a way that addresses local needs and desires more effectively

 

You know where that misinformation came from? The companies that benefit to make lots of money by people buying more grains and starches. 

 

You know how they were able to get that misinformation through so well? Because there aren't any good regulations against lobbyists peddling lies for profit and getting in bed with our politicians. One of the very real dangers of stripped down and small government; you leave the door wide open for misinformation like that to propagate. 

 

 

 

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I get most of my Peach45 coverage from a couple of buddies I've known for a long time.  One has always been a hard Right guy and the other was very Liberal in HS but much more Libertarian/Non partisan now.  One obviously a Trumper, the other not so much.  But both agree wholeheartedly that this was a poor effort from the Dems.  I listen to their opinions, then I come here and read this thread to counter their thoughts with other opinions.  And vice versa.

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2 minutes ago, Redux said:

I get most of my Peach45 coverage from a couple of buddies I've known for a long time.  One has always been a hard Right guy and the other was very Liberal in HS but much more Libertarian/Non partisan now.  One obviously a Trumper, the other not so much.  But both agree wholeheartedly that this was a poor effort from the Dems.  I listen to their opinions, then I come here and read this thread to counter their thoughts with other opinions.  And vice versa.

 

So... you know a couple of guys. And they tell you what's going on. Second-hand.

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To your credit Redux you at least keep coming back. Most folks who show up and say anything even remotely in favor of Trump wind up getting chased out of here very quickly because they tend to be uninformed and don't do facts well.

 

Sorry if it seems folks are trying to talk at you or talk down to you. Seems it's mostly folks just spitting out factual stuff you don't find compelling because your interests are elsewhere.

 

If you don't find the evidence compelling, it's because Trump personally blocked people with more intimate knowledge of events from testifying. Because he acts like a wannabe mob boss and is smart enough to try to avoid directly incriminating himself, silence those who could hurt him, etc. Doesn't that bother you?

 

I don't care if you really despise Democrats. That's fine. But I've asked before: What would you have them do, if not this? How could they be better preparing to beat Trump next year? And who could best do that, in your opinion?

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29 minutes ago, Redux said:

I actually admire the devotion a lot of you pour into it, I just don't care for the attitude that goes with it.  It's human nature I suppose to look down on someone you find ignorant or less studied than yourself.  I'm guilty of that too.  But it amazes me that the anti Trump crowd is so eager to have arguments with fence riders while the pro Trump side is much more willing to converse.  That's a lot of the reason you seem to think I'm so staunch right wing.

 

 

Its not really devotion.  I never followed politics until Trump was elected.  I didn't care.  But elections have real life consequences on real life people and people have literally died from Trumps policies, so I feel I need to at least be somewhat in the know about policies. 

 

I considered myself "non-partisan or independent" like you do before I really started looking into the issues.  For example, I had no idea that we are the only country to not guarantee healthcare.  I literally thought our healthcare system was the norm before a few years ago.  Now Im a staunch supporter of MFA.  Once you look at issue for issue, you see how screwed up a lot of it is and it is important to choose a candidate that you think will fix the issues.  You always talk about corruption, but I asked you yesterday and you never responded.  Im actually genuinely curious, why do you demean all the uncorrupted politicians if you are so against corruption?  Even if you are against some of their policies, you should respect them for not taking corporate money and being influenced.  My guess is you probably hear all the bad stuff about them from your buddies who most likely don't have all the facts either.

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17 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

To your credit Redux you at least keep coming back. Most folks who show up and say anything even remotely in favor of Trump wind up getting chased out of here very quickly because they tend to be uninformed and don't do facts well.

 

Sorry if it seems folks are trying to talk at you or talk down to you. Seems it's mostly folks just spitting out factual stuff you don't find compelling because your interests are elsewhere.

 

If you don't find the evidence compelling, it's because Trump personally blocked people with more intimate knowledge of events from testifying. Because he acts like a wannabe mob boss and is smart enough to try to avoid directly incriminating himself, silence those who could hurt him, etc. Doesn't that bother you?

 

I don't care if you really despise Democrats. That's fine. But I've asked before: What would you have them do, if not this? How could they be better preparing to beat Trump next year? And who could best do that, in your opinion?

 

I don't freak out over him doing corrupt s#!t like blocking people from testifying or talking to foreign governments because I just have it in my head that they all do that.  Hell Biden was essentially exposed for doing the same thing.  That can be spun any way people want it to though.

 

Well as far as better prepping, they should have rallied behind a couple of serious candidates that actually pose a threat to him.  My Repub friend is convinced it will be either Kamala or Warren because there's no shot a male gets the nomination from the Dems.  Idk if I believe that, but Biden is out and I don't really see any of the other guys standing out.

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1 minute ago, Redux said:

 

 Hell Biden was essentially exposed for doing the same thing.  

Biden followed formal American policy through proper channels. There wasn't anything wrong with how he handled Ukraine in the specific instance in Ukraine. Don't believe the catch all phrase "Biden did too". Biden did not.

 

I say this as someone who doesn't want Biden to be our next president and don't particular like him, FWIW.

 

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