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1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

Just to clarify one thing.  There are states in the country where Dems are gerrymandering to their benefit.  Yes, the Republicans are doing it WAY more and to a way more detriment to our Democracy.  But, I thought it necessary to point out that when the Dems are in power, they are not so moral that they don't do it too.

 

 

There are places where state Dems are currently doing it yeah. But there are also factions of the party nationally who are trying to propose bipartisan legislation that strips the ability to gerrymander from either party. And afaik no Democrats are explicitly disobeying rulings from their supreme courts and trying to completely rewrite the rules of all checks and balances to maintain their edge.

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2 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

There are places where state Dems are currently doing it yeah. But there are also factions of the party nationally who are trying to propose bipartisan legislation that strips the ability to gerrymander from either party. And afaik no Democrats are explicitly disobeying rulings from their supreme courts and trying to completely rewrite the rules of all checks and balances to maintain their edge.

 

See my last statement in my post.

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20 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

Lol "importing foreign voters"

 

The same far-right alternate reality crap, different day.

 

What's funny is that the majority of immigrants from Latin America are hard-working conservative Catholics. Many already vote Republican, and more would join them if Republicans didn't demonize the brown-skinned hordes as invaders, takers, rapists, and Democrats.

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11 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

This is a lot like the argument that Democrats were the original party of racism and opposition to the Civil Rights Act. Technically true, but historically ignorant by leaving out important context and almost always used in bad faith.
 

 

(Great thread BTW)

 

If you didn't know, the Dixiecrats - the segregationalist southern Dems - were the ones opposed to the CRA and attempted to block it. LBJ passed it with the help of Republicans and political realignment began. Dixecrats became Republicans and Republicans become modern Democrats.

 

Re: voting, Dems and purple/blue states are expanding voting access and kicking district drawing to independent third parties. Republicans are restricting voting and looking to gerrymander wherever possible.

 

Which fixes gerrymandering?

 

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

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8 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

 

What's her name?

Do we have unlimited immigration?

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19 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

 

You're so backwards dude.

 

There is no crisis of immigration. Whatsoever. More "illegal" hispanics are leaving this country each year than entering it.

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28 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

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45 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

Oh good friggen Lord. 

 

Republicans will do nothing over over the next 20 years other than constantly yell HILLARY....or .....OBAMA!!!!!!

 

let me guess, he’s a Muslim from Kenya. 

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15 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

Bingo   -- GWB tried comprehensive reform and almost got tarred and feathered not by Dems but by the 'new Republicans'.    Sometimes in our quest for the perfect we need to settle for the compromise.  Sometimes perfect gets in the way of 'the good and the practical'.

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13 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

Unfortunately, we are in a very different situation right now than what we are used to and it's all being masked over because of the Idiot in the White House.

 

Trump has blown the immigration issue totally to smithereens.  However, even if he wasn't in the WH, we would be having a major crisis.  The people showing up are very different than normal and in a LOT larger quantity and for very different reasons.

Problem is, we aren't having the conversation that needs to be had about why that changed and what to do about it because the idiot doesn't allow that conversation to be had.

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16 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

However, even if he wasn't in the WH, we would be having a major crisis.  The people showing up are very different than normal and in a LOT larger quantity and for very different reasons.

 

 

I’d like to see what’s telling you the above. 

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1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I’d like to see what’s telling you the above. 

Please read the entire articles, and not just my quoted parts.  They are very informative as to what is going on.

 

Well, this is a good starting point discussing how illegal immigration from the south has changed.

 

New York Times

 

Quote

 

In the past, undocumented immigrants were overwhelmingly single men from Mexico who slipped into the country undetected to find work and send money home. But immigration from Mexico has plummeted in recent years. In fact, more Mexicans are leaving than arriving in the United States. Mexicans are less compelled to come because there are more opportunities in their own country and they have smaller families to support.

 

Central American families have become the new face of undocumented immigration.

In the first five months of the fiscal year that began in October, the Border Patrol detained 136,150 people traveling in families with children, compared with 107,212 during all of fiscal 2018.

 

A trend toward family migration from Central America that began when Barack Obama was president has endured, after temporarily dipping during Mr. Trump’s first year in office.

 

 

 

Here are good articles on why they are coming.

 

Washington Post

 

Council on Foreign Relations

 

I find this interesting.  

 

Quote

MS-13 and M-18, the region’s largest gangs, are estimated to have as many as eighty-five thousand members [PDF] in total. Both were formed in Los Angeles: M-18 in the 1960s by Mexican youth, and MS-13 in the 1980s by Salvadorans who had fled the civil war. Their presence in Central America grew in the mid-1990s following large-scale deportations from the United States of undocumented immigrants with criminal records. The Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates there are ten thousand MS-13 members in the United States.

 

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Sounds like immigration numbers are declining:

Crisis at the Border? An Update on Immigration Policy with Stanford’s Lucas Guttentag

Quote

Not long ago it was reported that illegal immigration to the U.S. was at an all-time low. That situation seems to have changed significantly in the last few months if media reports are correct. Has there been an increase in the number of immigrants and asylum seekers reaching the U.S.-Mexico border?

 

The overall number of migrants crossing the southern border without authorization remains dramatically lower than it was in the past, but there has been an increase recently from that historic low. In the early 2000s, the number peaked at about 1.6 million apprehensions (i.e., individuals stopped for unauthorized entry by DHS) per year. In comparison, last year the number was down by 75 percent—to fewer than 400,000. The reduction is the result of many factors—most importantly those in Mexico. The Mexican economy has grown, its birth rate is down, employment prospects are much improved, and education levels are higher. That leads to reduced migration pressures. In addition, there has been a massive buildup in border enforcement since 9/11. While experts have long found that increased enforcement does little to reduce migrant flows and, in fact, often has the perverse effect of causing migrants who previously engaged in “circular” migration (i.e., coming and going) to remain in the United States permanently—the vast increase in U.S. Border Patrol agents and technology make the likelihood of apprehension much higher. So the major decline in apprehension numbers is all the more telling.

 

The rest of that article has a lot of detail on why immigration is coming from Central America now instead of Mexico along with how the US policies are making it worse.

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17 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

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