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22 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

both.  Now which party calls for socialism, importing foreign voters, and generally prefers SCOTUS to decide political questions?

 

 

You're wrong Joe. It's only the Republican party that keeps gerrymandering the s#!t and trying to make voting more difficult and inaccessible. 

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5 minutes ago, Landlord said:

You're wrong Joe. It's only the Republican party that keeps gerrymandering the s#!t and trying to make voting more difficult and inaccessible. 

 

 

He's *only* mostly wrong. Democrats have done it in the past and there are still maps today that were gerrymandered by Democrats. But the Democrats never did anything that comes even close to comparable to what the Republicans did before the 2012 election and what they're still doing now. That was a full scale, planned assault on democracy in this country and the supreme court judges don't know enough about math or statistics to realize it wouldn't be that hard to create maps in an unbiased way, or they're so partisan they don't want to fix it.

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53 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

both.  Now which party calls for socialism, importing foreign voters, and generally prefers SCOTUS to decide political questions?

Then why are the republicans fighting against stopping gerrymandering???

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1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

both.  Now which party calls for socialism, importing foreign voters, and generally prefers SCOTUS to decide political questions?

 

Lol "importing foreign voters"

 

The same far-right alternate reality crap, different day.

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2 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

He's *only* mostly wrong. Democrats have done it in the past and there are still maps today that were gerrymandered by Democrats. But the Democrats never did anything that comes even close to comparable to what the Republicans did before the 2012 election and what they're still doing now. That was a full scale, planned assault on democracy in this country and the supreme court judges don't know enough about math or statistics to realize it wouldn't be that hard to create maps in an unbiased way, or they're so partisan they don't want to fix it.

The original Governor Gerry was a Democrat.  Jumping to the legal issue, gerrymandering was the right of the states throughout the 20th century when the Ds held the House 90% of the time.  After the Rs gained power in the 90s legal scholars 'discovered' that it was a Constitutional menace.  So everyone does it and it is the moral equivalent of saying "out of touch with the common people"

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1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

The original Governor Gerry was a Democrat.  Jumping to the legal issue, gerrymandering was the right of the states throughout the 20th century when the Ds held the House 90% of the time.  After the Rs gained power in the 90s legal scholars 'discovered' that it was a Constitutional menace.  So everyone does it and it is the moral equivalent of saying "out of touch with the common people"

 

 

The political party someone was a member of in the 1700-1800s means f#&% all and I think you know that. And gerrymandering is never a good thing. I don’t care if the Democrats didn’t have a problem with it in the 20th century. They were wrong if that’s the case and it should still be fixed. And no one has ever come close to abusing it the way the Republicans have in the past 9 years.

 

And, as far as the 20th century goes, population shift makes gerrymandering much easier to accomplish. Mathematically it’s much easier to gerrymander high population areas. People should adapt to change.

 

Our regulations on clean air in the late 1700s were perfectly fine. I guess we didn’t need to change them.

 

The fact of the matter is gerrymandering disenfranchises voters and if you’re fine with it you don’t support the voters or democracy.

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5 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

The original Governor Gerry was a Democrat.  Jumping to the legal issue, gerrymandering was the right of the states throughout the 20th century when the Ds held the House 90% of the time.  After the Rs gained power in the 90s legal scholars 'discovered' that it was a Constitutional menace.  So everyone does it and it is the moral equivalent of saying "out of touch with the common people"

 

 

Let's talk about right now. I don't give a s#!t about your revisionist history with a weird interpretation. Let's talk about right now. We can all agree that properly represented districts are important and in support of good democracy. We can also all agree that every citizen should be encouraged to and should have the right to (with ease of access) be able to vote. 

 

Right now, the Republicans keep trying to make the districts unfair and stacked to their advantage, and they keep trying to block and make it more difficult for certain people to be able to vote. The Democrats are not doing any of that. The Republican party is spitting in the face of this democracy you pay lip service to.

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41 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

I didn't say Gerrymandering was good, it's not.  You're just calling out Rs for things that Ds have been doing, again and again. 

And you’re deflecting while some in this country want to end what you claim you think is bad. However, you keep deflecting because what you say is bad, is helping your party. 

 

If you think it’s bad, why not help end it?  

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1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

I didn't say Gerrymandering was good, it's not.  You're just calling out Rs for things that Ds have been doing, again and again. 

 

 

And you’re lying to yourself/others and acting like the 2 are equivalent. They’re not in the same ballpark. 

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1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

I didn't say Gerrymandering was good, it's not.  You're just calling out Rs for things that Ds have been doing, again and again. 

so you supported it when dems were doing it?  and will not complain if the dems get control and do it in the future?

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This is a lot like the argument that Democrats were the original party of racism and opposition to the Civil Rights Act. Technically true, but historically ignorant by leaving out important context and almost always used in bad faith.
 

 

(Great thread BTW)

 

If you didn't know, the Dixiecrats - the segregationalist southern Dems - were the ones opposed to the CRA and attempted to block it. LBJ passed it with the help of Republicans and political realignment began. Dixecrats became Republicans and Republicans become modern Democrats.

 

Re: voting, Dems and purple/blue states are expanding voting access and kicking district drawing to independent third parties. Republicans are restricting voting and looking to gerrymander wherever possible.

 

Which fixes gerrymandering?

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6 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

I didn't say Gerrymandering was good, it's not.  You're just calling out Rs for things that Ds have been doing, again and again. 

 

 

Right now there's only one party doing it, and doing it worse and in a way that's far more threatening to democracy than has ever been done.

 

And you're sitting here whiningn about the dems.

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20 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Right now there's only one party doing it, and doing it worse and in a way that's far more threatening to democracy than has ever been done.

 

And you're sitting here whiningn about the dems.

Just to clarify one thing.  There are states in the country where Dems are gerrymandering to their benefit.  Yes, the Republicans are doing it WAY more and to a way more detriment to our Democracy.  But, I thought it necessary to point out that when the Dems are in power, they are not so moral that they don't do it too.

 

However, it is true that only one of these parties is actively fighting against changing the system to prevent gerrymandering from happening.  AND,......that's not the one with the donkeys.

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1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

Just to clarify one thing.  There are states in the country where Dems are gerrymandering to their benefit.  Yes, the Republicans are doing it WAY more and to a way more detriment to our Democracy.  But, I thought it necessary to point out that when the Dems are in power, they are not so moral that they don't do it too.

 

 

There are places where state Dems are currently doing it yeah. But there are also factions of the party nationally who are trying to propose bipartisan legislation that strips the ability to gerrymander from either party. And afaik no Democrats are explicitly disobeying rulings from their supreme courts and trying to completely rewrite the rules of all checks and balances to maintain their edge.

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2 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

There are places where state Dems are currently doing it yeah. But there are also factions of the party nationally who are trying to propose bipartisan legislation that strips the ability to gerrymander from either party. And afaik no Democrats are explicitly disobeying rulings from their supreme courts and trying to completely rewrite the rules of all checks and balances to maintain their edge.

 

See my last statement in my post.

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20 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

Lol "importing foreign voters"

 

The same far-right alternate reality crap, different day.

 

What's funny is that the majority of immigrants from Latin America are hard-working conservative Catholics. Many already vote Republican, and more would join them if Republicans didn't demonize the brown-skinned hordes as invaders, takers, rapists, and Democrats.

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11 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

This is a lot like the argument that Democrats were the original party of racism and opposition to the Civil Rights Act. Technically true, but historically ignorant by leaving out important context and almost always used in bad faith.
 

 

(Great thread BTW)

 

If you didn't know, the Dixiecrats - the segregationalist southern Dems - were the ones opposed to the CRA and attempted to block it. LBJ passed it with the help of Republicans and political realignment began. Dixecrats became Republicans and Republicans become modern Democrats.

 

Re: voting, Dems and purple/blue states are expanding voting access and kicking district drawing to independent third parties. Republicans are restricting voting and looking to gerrymander wherever possible.

 

Which fixes gerrymandering?

 

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

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8 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

 

What's her name?

Do we have unlimited immigration?

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19 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

 

You're so backwards dude.

 

There is no crisis of immigration. Whatsoever. More "illegal" hispanics are leaving this country each year than entering it.

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28 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

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45 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Yeah we have that in my [red] state.  The 'independent' member of the independent redistricting commission 'forgot' to disclose that she had worked for an Obama consulting group.  Gerrymandering is a minor problem.  Unlimited immigration is beyond major, it is a crisis. 

Oh good friggen Lord. 

 

Republicans will do nothing over over the next 20 years other than constantly yell HILLARY....or .....OBAMA!!!!!!

 

let me guess, he’s a Muslim from Kenya. 

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15 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

Bingo   -- GWB tried comprehensive reform and almost got tarred and feathered not by Dems but by the 'new Republicans'.    Sometimes in our quest for the perfect we need to settle for the compromise.  Sometimes perfect gets in the way of 'the good and the practical'.

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13 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

Unfortunately, we are in a very different situation right now than what we are used to and it's all being masked over because of the Idiot in the White House.

 

Trump has blown the immigration issue totally to smithereens.  However, even if he wasn't in the WH, we would be having a major crisis.  The people showing up are very different than normal and in a LOT larger quantity and for very different reasons.

Problem is, we aren't having the conversation that needs to be had about why that changed and what to do about it because the idiot doesn't allow that conversation to be had.

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16 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

However, even if he wasn't in the WH, we would be having a major crisis.  The people showing up are very different than normal and in a LOT larger quantity and for very different reasons.

 

 

I’d like to see what’s telling you the above. 

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1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I’d like to see what’s telling you the above. 

Please read the entire articles, and not just my quoted parts.  They are very informative as to what is going on.

 

Well, this is a good starting point discussing how illegal immigration from the south has changed.

 

New York Times

 

Quote

 

In the past, undocumented immigrants were overwhelmingly single men from Mexico who slipped into the country undetected to find work and send money home. But immigration from Mexico has plummeted in recent years. In fact, more Mexicans are leaving than arriving in the United States. Mexicans are less compelled to come because there are more opportunities in their own country and they have smaller families to support.

 

Central American families have become the new face of undocumented immigration.

In the first five months of the fiscal year that began in October, the Border Patrol detained 136,150 people traveling in families with children, compared with 107,212 during all of fiscal 2018.

 

A trend toward family migration from Central America that began when Barack Obama was president has endured, after temporarily dipping during Mr. Trump’s first year in office.

 

 

 

Here are good articles on why they are coming.

 

Washington Post

 

Council on Foreign Relations

 

I find this interesting.  

 

Quote

MS-13 and M-18, the region’s largest gangs, are estimated to have as many as eighty-five thousand members [PDF] in total. Both were formed in Los Angeles: M-18 in the 1960s by Mexican youth, and MS-13 in the 1980s by Salvadorans who had fled the civil war. Their presence in Central America grew in the mid-1990s following large-scale deportations from the United States of undocumented immigrants with criminal records. The Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates there are ten thousand MS-13 members in the United States.

 

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Sounds like immigration numbers are declining:

Crisis at the Border? An Update on Immigration Policy with Stanford’s Lucas Guttentag

Quote

Not long ago it was reported that illegal immigration to the U.S. was at an all-time low. That situation seems to have changed significantly in the last few months if media reports are correct. Has there been an increase in the number of immigrants and asylum seekers reaching the U.S.-Mexico border?

 

The overall number of migrants crossing the southern border without authorization remains dramatically lower than it was in the past, but there has been an increase recently from that historic low. In the early 2000s, the number peaked at about 1.6 million apprehensions (i.e., individuals stopped for unauthorized entry by DHS) per year. In comparison, last year the number was down by 75 percent—to fewer than 400,000. The reduction is the result of many factors—most importantly those in Mexico. The Mexican economy has grown, its birth rate is down, employment prospects are much improved, and education levels are higher. That leads to reduced migration pressures. In addition, there has been a massive buildup in border enforcement since 9/11. While experts have long found that increased enforcement does little to reduce migrant flows and, in fact, often has the perverse effect of causing migrants who previously engaged in “circular” migration (i.e., coming and going) to remain in the United States permanently—the vast increase in U.S. Border Patrol agents and technology make the likelihood of apprehension much higher. So the major decline in apprehension numbers is all the more telling.

 

The rest of that article has a lot of detail on why immigration is coming from Central America now instead of Mexico along with how the US policies are making it worse.

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17 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I guess my question is why do you view these as two sides of the same coin? They're wildly different issues that are at best tangentially related.

 

I as well will say we don't have "unlimited" immigration. Words matter in this discussion.

 

To humor you though, to the extent we have an immigration crisis, it's because of the failure of Congress to pass badly needed comprehensive immigration reform (in no small part because the GOP base would revolt at the word "compromise") and the stunning malice and incompetence of the Trump administration immigration doctrine.

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

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20 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

No you didn't.  

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1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

 

 

You didn’t show that, and it’s hard to show since it’s false. Stop eating up the lies you’re being fed.

 

Btw, how old are you?

 

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2 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

 

It's true that there's a humanitarian crisis right now at the U.S. border, not unlike other countries faced with an influx of refugees and no good alternatives. 

 

It's not quite the same as ongoing immigration policy.  

 

One of the problems is Americans who can look at desperate mothers and children and see only Democrat voters.

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4 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

Except the data actually shows the reverse. Stop believing the lies that demonize immigrants.

From the George W Bush Presidential Center: A NATION BUILT BY IMMIGRANTS

From the conservative Cato Center: Immigration and Crime – What the Research Says

 

FYI: The "disease" propaganda comes straight from the Nazis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690128/

In fact, many of the immigrants from Mexico and Central America are better vaccinated than Americans:

Quote

Myth #6: Immigrants are bringing diseases into the U.S.
The Facts:
Although people have claimed that undocumented immigrants have brought diseases to the U.S., including measles, hepatitis C, HIV, tuberculosis, and even Ebola, the allegations are not supported. There is no evidence that immigrants have been the source of any modern outbreaks in the U.S. According to the World Health Organization, 113 countries, including many countries in Latin America, have higher vaccination rates for 1-year-olds than the U.S. Mexico, for example, has a 99 percent vaccination rate for measles while Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador have around a 93 percent vaccination rate. The vaccination rate in the U.S., by comparison, is approximately 92 percent. The vast majority of immigrants arriving in the U.S. have been screened for health issues.

 

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4 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

 

In addition to the other stuff people have already posted, which I hope you take a look at and digest...

 

You're smarter than to look at our broken immigration system and why past attempts at reform have failed and blame it entirely on Democrats. You know that isn't true. Remember not that long ago we had the Gang of 8 that were going to finally get immigration reform done? Four Republicans were part of that group. McCain has passed on, rest in peace. Flake is no longer in the Senate. But what's the excuse for Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham?

 

They put their own ambitions ahead of doing what is right for the country. They tucked their tails and ran from their work because they knew the Republican base would despise them for it.

 

Let's not pretend this is a one party problem. Have some intellectual honesty, man.

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2 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

It's true that there's a humanitarian crisis right now at the U.S. border, not unlike other countries faced with an influx of refugees and no good alternatives. 

 

It's not quite the same as ongoing immigration policy.  

 

One of the problems is Americans who can look at desperate mothers and children and see only Democrat voters.

 

Just to be clear, by "Americans" I specifically meant Notre Dame Joe and his pathological eye-rolling. 

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5 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

I live in a border state and have my entire life and nothing about this is true. RedDenver summed it up perfectly. Why don't you just be honest about the real reason you think their is a immigration crisis. 

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8 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Please read the entire articles, and not just my quoted parts.  They are very informative as to what is going on.

 

Well, this is a good starting point discussing how illegal immigration from the south has changed.

 

New York Times

 

 

 

Here are good articles on why they are coming.

 

Washington Post

 

Council on Foreign Relations

 

I find this interesting.  

 

 

 

 

Thanks. Doubling is a big increase but we need more than 5 months to see if it's a trend. And even if it did double from last year, it's still a lot lower than it used to be.

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There is no border crisis. This is a distraction being fed to people so they don't spend all their time wondering why Russia meddled in our 2016 & 2018 elections and Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump won't do anything about it.

 

UAE8HbP.jpg

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48 minutes ago, knapplc said:

There is no border crisis. This is a distraction being fed to people so they don't spend all their time wondering why Russia meddled in our 2016 & 2018 elections and Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump won't do anything about it.

 

UAE8HbP.jpg

You forgot about the part where they just don't really like the brown people but spot on. The only reason I say that is because Trump campaigned on this as well as Muslim ban. Trump, a man of the (white) people

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

There is no border crisis. This is a distraction being fed to people so they don't spend all their time wondering why Russia meddled in our 2016 & 2018 elections and Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump won't do anything about it.

 

UAE8HbP.jpg

You're right.  It's not a crisis in the sense that we are being invaded by an unprecedented number of those horrible brown people.  It is a crisis though in the sense that it's women and children at the border and something needs to be done to make sure they are safe and then decide if they should be allowed in or not.  In a deeper view, it's a crisis that the American market for drugs and deportation of violent criminals has created such horrible conditions in these countries that these families need to flee.

 

I firmly believe that we need to keep trying to help these countries stabilize themselves.  Once that's done, they will stop knocking on our door.  The vast majority of these people actually want to live in their own country.  They don't want to make such a dangerous journey to here.  But, they feel they need too.  

 

Demonizing these people is not the answer in a practical sense nor a moral sense.  

 

And....yes....I agree that Trump likes this "crisis" because it's something else to talk about other than Russia.

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3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

In a deeper view, it's a crisis that the American market for drugs and deportation of violent criminals has created such horrible conditions in these countries that these families need to flee. 

 

I firmly believe that we need to keep trying to help these countries stabilize themselves.  Once that's done, they will stop knocking on our door.  The vast majority of these people actually want to live in their own country.  They don't want to make such a dangerous journey to here.  But, they feel they need too.   

 

Demonizing these people is not the answer in a practical sense nor a moral sense. 

 

This is correct. The one thing that would actually help stem the flow of asylum seekers from Central and South America would be humanitarian aid and helping them stabilize and democratize their countries.

 

Instead the Trump immigration doctrine is to prove how cruel and inhumane we can treat people when they arrive so the base knows how tough we are on immigration. In part because Trump doesn't want to or can't solve other problems, but also the logical conclusion of the GOP stoking fear and anger at "the other" to its base for votes.

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16 hours ago, RedDenver said:
20 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

Except the data actually shows the reverse. Stop believing the lies that demonize immigrants.

From the George W Bush Presidential Center: A NATION BUILT BY IMMIGRANTS

From the conservative Cato Center: Immigration and Crime – What the Research Says

 

FYI: The "disease" propaganda comes straight from the Nazis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690128/

In fact, many of the immigrants from Mexico and Central America are better vaccinated than Americans:

Quote

Myth #6: Immigrants are bringing diseases into the U.S.
The Facts:
Although people have claimed that undocumented immigrants have brought diseases to the U.S., including measles, hepatitis C, HIV, tuberculosis, and even Ebola, the allegations are not supported. There is no evidence that immigrants have been the source of any modern outbreaks in the U.S. According to the World Health Organization, 113 countries, including many countries in Latin America, have higher vaccination rates for 1-year-olds than the U.S. Mexico, for example, has a 99 percent vaccination rate for measles while Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador have around a 93 percent vaccination rate. The vaccination rate in the U.S., by comparison, is approximately 92 percent. The vast majority of immigrants arriving in the U.S. have been screened for health issues.

 

 

@Notre Dame Joe

 

I'd like you to let us know that you have read and understand the evidence provided above and acknowledge that you were wrong.

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4 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

You're right.  It's not a crisis in the sense that we are being invaded by an unprecedented number of those horrible brown people.  It is a crisis though in the sense that it's women and children at the border and something needs to be done to make sure they are safe and then decide if they should be allowed in or not.  In a deeper view, it's a crisis that the American market for drugs and deportation of violent criminals has created such horrible conditions in these countries that these families need to flee.

 

I firmly believe that we need to keep trying to help these countries stabilize themselves.  Once that's done, they will stop knocking on our door.  The vast majority of these people actually want to live in their own country.  They don't want to make such a dangerous journey to here.  But, they feel they need too.  

 

Demonizing these people is not the answer in a practical sense nor a moral sense.  

 

And....yes....I agree that Trump likes this "crisis" because it's something else to talk about other than Russia.

 

 

Ok, so there are too different crises we’re talking about, imo. One is potentially real, a humanitarian crisis. The other is the one Trump, Notre Dame Joe and others like them talk about - Criminals entering our country, stealing our jobs, raping our women, giving us diseases, etc. The things Trump wants to do to combat the latter aren’t going to help with the former, and he’s not interested in helping with it. 

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3 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Ok, so there are too different crises we’re talking about, imo. One is potentially real, a humanitarian crisis. The other is the one Trump, Notre Dame Joe and others like them talk about - Criminals entering our country, stealing our jobs, raping our women, giving us diseases, etc. The things Trump wants to do to combat the latter aren’t going to help with the former. 

 

Correct.

 

But, we aren't talking about the real crisis because of the made up crisis Trump has created.

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6 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

I firmly believe that we need to keep trying to help these countries stabilize themselves.  Once that's done, they will stop knocking on our door.  The vast majority of these people actually want to live in their own country.  They don't want to make such a dangerous journey to here.  But, they feel they need too.  

 

Demonizing these people is not the answer in a practical sense nor a moral sense.  

 

Root cause analysis 101.  Go to the source of the problem and work with us to fix the root.   Maybe the idea of the North American Union makes more sense since we are already paying for much of the poor in NA.  No, I don't want the NAU but I do think if we are spending billions all ready, we might as well work with local govts to change the conditions there - with certain stipulations or controls in place (we may have to 'encourage' some low life leaders to step down - not to be confused wt the one we have here). 

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9 hours ago, knapplc said:

There is no border crisis. This is a distraction being fed to people so they don't spend all their time wondering why Russia meddled in our 2016 & 2018 elections and Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump won't do anything about it.

 

UAE8HbP.jpg

This sums up the mind of the liberal better than I could have.  We know Russian meddling amounted to facebook trolls that did not alter the election.  We know there are hordes of people illegally entering the US.  But to get a label like 'crisis' it has to go against the interest of the Left wing party.  

 

Here's a thought experiment, how would you feel about an armada of Russians landing on the Atlantic coast and reading the same few sentences requesting asylum?

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4 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

This sums up the mind of the liberal better than I could have.  We know Russian meddling amounted to facebook trolls that did not alter the election. 

Really?   Hmmmmm....

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24 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

This sums up the mind of the liberal better than I could have.  We know Russian meddling amounted to facebook trolls that did not alter the election.  We know there are hordes of people illegally entering the US.  But to get a label like 'crisis' it has to go against the interest of the Left wing party.  

 

Here's a thought experiment, how would you feel about an armada of Russians landing on the Atlantic coast and reading the same few sentences requesting asylum?

The fact that you would even attempt to equate the two is astonishing!

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On 6/4/2019 at 4:29 PM, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

Landlord brought up gerrymandering to support the theory that Rs are less democratic than the Democrats. I showed it that carries no water.

 

It's surreal living in a border state to here people deep in the middle say there is no border crisis.  Every hour the not too partisan local news reports another story from the migrants.  Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st.  And the Ds have done whatever is necessary to prevent a solution knowing every truck means more future bloc voters for the next 50 years.

Sexual assault, disease, unsupervised children etc are all the known side effects of allowing a mass migration of the 2nd world trying to get into the 1st. 

 

You are incorrect.  There is zero evidence that crimes by immigrants are high, or that areas that they reside are experiencing more crime.  In fact study after study proves that they commit less violent crime than citizens.

 

You can dislike them coming over for whatever personal reason, but it's just that.  They're not voting illegally, they're not increasing crime or disease ... blah blah blah.   I've attached some articles, but I know reading isn't something you do - so there are some pictures for you as well.

 

https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-crime-assessing-evidence

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/two-charts-demolish-the-notion-that-immigrants-here-illegally-commit-more-crime/?utm_term=.a29ee7595aeb

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/02/crime-immigration-city-migrants-refugees-state-of-the-union/582001/

https://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93

https://www.businessinsider.com/undocumented-aliens-violent-crime-murder-statistics-data-2018-8

 

 

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Screen Shot 2019-06-05 at 7.16.22 PM.png

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