Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker

[Cdog923]

The Mandalorian (and The Clone Wars) has rekindled my love for Star Wars that the Sequel Trilogy had snuffed out. 

[Mavric]

43 minutes ago, ZRod said:

The prequels weren't that bad. There was some really rough dialogue, but over all they were a good continuation on the Space Opera theme, and pretty well thought-out story telling that provided a back story. On the whole they were a positive expansion of the universe.

 

Obviously you just didn't understand it.  Just ask George Lucas.

 

I thought the prequels were better than most people did.  There were some oddities but they fit the stroyline well.

 

I thought the production quality of TFA was good.  The main issue I had with it was the story was almost 100% recycled from ANH.  So it was pretty boring from a story perspective.  They they just completely abandoned everything that had come before in TLJ.  ROS tried to end the story of TFA the way they wanted but they had to jump through a bunch of hoops to try to fix what they broke in TLJ.  So the sequels were a complete disaster.  And that's probably why they are reportedly considering retconning them completely out of existence.

[Ulty]

6 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Why do you hate the prequels so much? Just curious on your opinion. I've seen all kinds of them. 

ooh boy...I don't know if I can keep this succinct. If you read this whole post, you may even think less of me as a man. I have a deep hatred of the prequels, I'll try to explain rationally, but to understand a lot of my angst, you must know that my entire childhood was dominated by Star Wars.

 

I am in my early 40s, so the original trilogy had just made its splash in my formative years. I had an older brother who was in it deeper than I was, but we had the toys, the puzzles, the lunchboxes, the breakfast cereals. I have had the original movies memorized since elementary school. The John Williams score was on a constant loop in my head. Every stick on the ground and every roll of wrapping paper was a light saber, every time it snowed outside I was on Hoth, and every time I made a smartass remark I was Han Solo. Star Wars meant everything to me as a kid.

 

Imagine my excitement as a college kid, getting to see a brand new Star Wars movie, after living my life in a galaxy far, far away! Episode I! Then what happens...I'll make a list:

 

- Jar Jar. WTF is that $h!t???

 

- Darth Vader, the greatest villain of all time...is a whiny kid. The whole story was supposed to be about his descent into darkness, but he was a whiny douche who seemed to turn on a whim because he was lovesick. It was unconvincing, and as a result he is less impressive as a villain in the later movies. The "noooooo" at the end made me cringe. 

 

- Beloved characters from the original trilogy are shoe-horned into the story for no reason. Why did C3PO have to be built by Anakin? R2D2 just happens to be involved in every significant event in the history of the galaxy for 50 years? Yoda and Chewbacca are friends? Did we need to see Boba Fett as a child, and it happens that the entire army of storm troopers was ultimately cloned from his dad? It is all unnecessary.

 

- In addition to the above, careless storytelling in the prequels created plot holes in the original trilogy that didn't previously exist. Obi-Wan didn't remember R2 or 3PO? Luke's father wanted him to have his light saber? Han didn't believe in the force even though his best friend and copilot was personal buddies with the greatest Jedi Master in the galaxy? Leia remembered her mother? All this bull$h!t devalued the original movies, which I found personally offensive. And that was the worst part - the prequels felt like they were making a mockery of my whole childhood.

 

- Was Episode I supposed to be a kid's movie? With Jar Jar, baby Anikan, and the slapstick, it seemed that way. But it was a kid's movie about trade disputes and politics. If it was meant to be a political drama, get that other nonsense out of there. If it was meant to be more of a classic hero's journey formula like a New Hope, it was too convoluted to be effective. If Ep I came out first, I can't imagine that the franchise would have ever gone anywhere.

 

- Even the stuff that was cool (some of the battles) were overdone. Except for the Darth Maul fight, which was a bright spot, some of the fight choreography was ridiculous. Yoda jumping around like a ping pong ball is not as cool as I would have imagined it as a kid. The Luke/Vader fight in ESB was a superior battle compared to anything in the prequels, not because of the flips and choreography, but because of the tension and drama.  

 

If you have a few hours to kill, watch Mr. Plinkett's review of the prequels on Youtube. His critique is hilarious and on point. 

 

[Ulty]

18 minutes ago, Cdog923 said:

The Mandalorian (and The Clone Wars) has rekindled my love for Star Wars that the Sequel Trilogy had snuffed out. 

Agreed. The Rebels cartoon series is pretty good too. The TV properties may turn out to be a better way to explore the Star Wars universe than the movies.

 

However, when I see that they are greenlighting a dozen new spinoff series, quality will certainly dip, not to mention the oversaturation of it all. Sometimes you can have too much.

[Ulty]

16 minutes ago, Mavric said:

I thought the production quality of TFA was good.  The main issue I had with it was the story was almost 100% recycled from ANH.  So it was pretty boring from a story perspective.  They they just completely abandoned everything that had come before in TLJ.  ROS tried to end the story of TFA the way they wanted but they had to jump through a bunch of hoops to try to fix what they broke in TLJ.  So the sequels were a complete disaster.  And that's probably why they are reportedly considering retconning them completely out of existence.

I agree with this. It seems like the company did not have a plan for the trilogy, they just let the directors write a story and do what they wanted. It didn't make sense. They also kept introducing so many new characters with no real plan for them. To paraphrase the emperor: "they paid a price for their lack of vision."

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, knapplc said:

I'm not going to get into any spoilers, and maybe I'm just not far along enough in the show to get the whole feel of all of this, but it seems like from what I'm seeing about halfway through the Mandalorian that they may be trying to retcon the sequal trilogy.

 

Mandalorian is canon, so what they're saying on there should be gospel.

 

Remember when they announced VII, VII and IX and they basically said the entire Expanded Universe was no longer canon? If they can wave their hand and uncanonize a whole slew of books, they can uncanonize the sequel trilogy, too.

 

 

Difference is the volume of people who have seen the sequels vs all of the expanded universe.

[knapplc]

Just now, ZRod said:

Difference is the volume of people who have seen the sequels vs all of the expanded universe.

 

Some significant overlap there.

[Cdog923]

45 minutes ago, Ulty said:

Agreed. The Rebels cartoon series is pretty good too. The TV properties may turn out to be a better way to explore the Star Wars universe than the movies.

 

However, when I see that they are greenlighting a dozen new spinoff series, quality will certainly dip, not to mention the oversaturation of it all. Sometimes you can have too much.

 

If Filoni and Favreau are in charge, I've got the utmost faith that they'll all be decent, if not good. 

[Cdog923]

1 hour ago, Ulty said:

ooh boy...I don't know if I can keep this succinct. If you read this whole post, you may even think less of me as a man. I have a deep hatred of the prequels, I'll try to explain rationally, but to understand a lot of my angst, you must know that my entire childhood was dominated by Star Wars.

 

I am in my early 40s, so the original trilogy had just made its splash in my formative years. I had an older brother who was in it deeper than I was, but we had the toys, the puzzles, the lunchboxes, the breakfast cereals. I have had the original movies memorized since elementary school. The John Williams score was on a constant loop in my head. Every stick on the ground and every roll of wrapping paper was a light saber, every time it snowed outside I was on Hoth, and every time I made a smartass remark I was Han Solo. Star Wars meant everything to me as a kid.

 

Imagine my excitement as a college kid, getting to see a brand new Star Wars movie, after living my life in a galaxy far, far away! Episode I! Then what happens...I'll make a list:

 

- Jar Jar. WTF is that $h!t???

 

- Darth Vader, the greatest villain of all time...is a whiny kid. The whole story was supposed to be about his descent into darkness, but he was a whiny douche who seemed to turn on a whim because he was lovesick. It was unconvincing, and as a result he is less impressive as a villain in the later movies. The "noooooo" at the end made me cringe. 

 

- Beloved characters from the original trilogy are shoe-horned into the story for no reason. Why did C3PO have to be built by Anakin? R2D2 just happens to be involved in every significant event in the history of the galaxy for 50 years? Yoda and Chewbacca are friends? Did we need to see Boba Fett as a child, and it happens that the entire army of storm troopers was ultimately cloned from his dad? It is all unnecessary.

 

- In addition to the above, careless storytelling in the prequels created plot holes in the original trilogy that didn't previously exist. Obi-Wan didn't remember R2 or 3PO? Luke's father wanted him to have his light saber? Han didn't believe in the force even though his best friend and copilot was personal buddies with the greatest Jedi Master in the galaxy? Leia remembered her mother? All this bull$h!t devalued the original movies, which I found personally offensive. And that was the worst part - the prequels felt like they were making a mockery of my whole childhood.

 

- Was Episode I supposed to be a kid's movie? With Jar Jar, baby Anikan, and the slapstick, it seemed that way. But it was a kid's movie about trade disputes and politics. If it was meant to be a political drama, get that other nonsense out of there. If it was meant to be more of a classic hero's journey formula like a New Hope, it was too convoluted to be effective. If Ep I came out first, I can't imagine that the franchise would have ever gone anywhere.

 

- Even the stuff that was cool (some of the battles) were overdone. Except for the Darth Maul fight, which was a bright spot, some of the fight choreography was ridiculous. Yoda jumping around like a ping pong ball is not as cool as I would have imagined it as a kid. The Luke/Vader fight in ESB was a superior battle compared to anything in the prequels, not because of the flips and choreography, but because of the tension and drama.  

 

If you have a few hours to kill, watch Mr. Plinkett's review of the prequels on Youtube. His critique is hilarious and on point. 

 

 

You should watch these: 

 

 

Also, for all the good points you just made, the Prequels > the Sequels. 

[Enhance]

1 hour ago, Ulty said:

- Was Episode I supposed to be a kid's movie? With Jar Jar, baby Anikan, and the slapstick, it seemed that way. But it was a kid's movie about trade disputes and politics. If it was meant to be a political drama, get that other nonsense out of there. If it was meant to be more of a classic hero's journey formula like a New Hope, it was too convoluted to be effective. If Ep I came out first, I can't imagine that the franchise would have ever gone anywhere.

The biggest problem with EP1 is that virtually the entire film is irrelevant to the overall Star Wars saga. Much of the plot is trivial and unnecessary in explaining the wider story/universe. That's also why the popular 'Machete' order of watching the films recommends just altogether cutting EP1 from the viewing experience.

[Enhance]

2 hours ago, Mavric said:

I thought the production quality of TFA was good.  The main issue I had with it was the story was almost 100% recycled from ANH.  So it was pretty boring from a story perspective.  They they just completely abandoned everything that had come before in TLJ.  ROS tried to end the story of TFA the way they wanted but they had to jump through a bunch of hoops to try to fix what they broke in TLJ.  So the sequels were a complete disaster.  And that's probably why they are reportedly considering retconning them completely out of existence.

Agree with all of this - pretty much exactly why I'm not a big fan of the sequel trilogy.

 

There were certainly some high points of TFA. Seeing the Falcon scene at the beginning gave me goosebumps and still does, and I legitimately got teary-eyed when Rey pulled the lightsaber toward herself and away from Kylo in their duel at the end of the film. There were some solid story pieces and there were other sweet/touching moments, but overall, it was too much of a recycled ANH for me to fully enjoy it.

 

With TLJ, I've waffled on this quite a lot, but overall think it was a dump/waste of time. Incoherent and at times ludicrous plot structure, a pointless adventure to a casino planet, a "you're going too far with this comparison" Hoth (I mean... Crait) battle, Luke's reasons for feeling still not really making a lot of sense based on the original trilogy. Just a weird, weird waste.

 

And then RoS just felt like a slapdash attempt to try and correct the weird path TLJ went down. The Emperor returning could've been special had it been woven into the fabric of the first two movies, but it's pretty clear to me that this either a) wasn't initially intended or b) was intended, but TLJ kind of ruined it.

 

I wouldn't be that upset if it ultimately got retconned. I don't know how you develop a new Star Wars trilogy where each movie doesn't feel like it is expanding upon the previous. Where was the vision, or what was the vision? 

[Redux]

On 12/17/2020 at 2:10 PM, ZRod said:

Still haven't really seen this movie. I put it on during a flight and fell asleep, it didn't seem very captivating.

 

The Last Jedi really turned me off from the series anyway. It was an ok movie, it just wasn't a good Star Wars movie.

 

The Last Jedi was actually an awesome Star Wars movie, if it was centered around completely different characters than the sequels.....and if it was a video game instead of a movie.

[whateveritis1224]

1 hour ago, Redux said:

 

The Last Jedi was actually an awesome Star Wars movie, if it was centered around completely different characters than the sequels.....and if it was a video game instead of a movie.

I've mentioned it here a few times and on twitter, but TLJ was only 1/3rd of an acceptable movie (Rey/Luke/Kylo storyline). The rest of the movie is forgettable/downright dumb. Why is someone preaching to the ex-stormtrooper about slavery? That storyline would have been better as Finn in Rose's place with Poe or have Poe take Finn's pace and hear the message about not overlooking the little guy from the sister of someone who died in the mission you lead at the beginning of the movie. If you look at the second option, the alternate storyline also makes sense. Why would someone trust an ex-stormtrooper with the escape plans when something happened that had never happened before (tracking through hyperspace)?

The biggest issue, though, is that the characterizations between TFA and TLJ just did not match up, especially with the non-force side of the movie? Finn makes a decision to stand up and fight Kylo at the end of TFA means he's not going to run away? Next chance he has he's running away. Poe is a bastion of positivity and looking at the best of people turning into a hot head glory seeker. Rey making a decision, when she pulled the lightsaber from the snow, to move forward and stop looking towards her past. Next movie she's focusing on who her parents were. The issue of Rey's parents were mostly talked about by fans probably too much. Her asking that question in the cave and then having it brought up by Kylo in the throne room was too meta and speaking to the audience. Along with Luke flipping the lightsaber over his shoulder at the beginning of the movie. The script was just rife with these little one liners and quips that didn't feel like they belonged in the movie. The should throw undermines the heavy scene that happened just before at the end of TFA. The force storyline was full of serious and heavy stuff, but then you have the milking scene, the Kylo shirtless scene, etc...

 

Until I hear otherwise, I will 100% believe that Abrams detailed how he wanted the trilogy to go, but Johnson wanted to tell his own story. Who knows if that story would have been good, but I probably would have enjoyed it a lot more than TLJ.

[Redux]

The entire side plot should have been abandoned

[RedDenver]

5 hours ago, Redux said:

 

The Last Jedi was actually an awesome Star Wars movie, if it was centered around completely different characters than the sequels.....and if it was a video game instead of a movie.

x1000