The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[TGHusker]

16 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

There’s about a 99% chance his political opponents are stirring this up now.

 

But I didn’t really want him to win the nomination and I don’t like that he nuzzles women/girls he’s just met. Even if his intentions aren’t bad/sexual, that doesn’t mean the people he’s doing it to are ok with it.

again it is just creep and I agree wt you.  We've had Bill Clinton, Trump and we don't need another guy who can't control himself in the WH (not saying he is on the same level wt those 2).

Maybe Pence isn't so strange after all with his policy of not being a lone with a female business associate. 

[NM11046]

9 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

again it is just creep and I agree wt you.  We've had Bill Clinton, Trump and we don't need another guy who can't control himself in the WH (not saying he is on the same level wt those 2).

Maybe Pence isn't so strange after all with his policy of not being a lone with a female business associate. 

Come on now ... I hope that last part is sarcastic.

[NM11046]

Because we've talked a bit about West Wing recently:

 

 

[Moiraine]

45 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

again it is just creep and I agree wt you.  We've had Bill Clinton, Trump and we don't need another guy who can't control himself in the WH (not saying he is on the same level wt those 2).

Maybe Pence isn't so strange after all with his policy of not being a lone with a female business associate. 

 

 

I’m with NM. I hope you’re joking on the last part. Men who can’t control themselves in the presence of women shouldn’t be in any positions of power anywhere. Especially not in government. Refusing to be around women is a very sexist solution, as if they’re the ones who are causing the problem.

[BigRedBuster]

26 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I’m with NM. I hope you’re joking on the last part. Men who can’t control themselves in the presence of women shouldn’t be in any positions of power anywhere. Especially not in government. Refusing to be around women is a very sexist solution, as if they’re the ones who are causing the problem.

 

In no way shape or form am I supporting Pence.  I don't know enough about his policy to do so.  But, there is a big area between being cognizant of being in situations with women alone where something can be construed to be inappropriate and....."refusing to be around women."

 

I don't "refuse to be around women".  I have a lot of women in my company that are key people that I work very close with.  But, I am also very cautious not to do anything that can end up being interpreted like what Biden's actions are characterized as.  Three things are important:

 

a)  Respect the contribution women give and give them every opportunity everyone else has in the company.

b)  Never put yourself in a  position where the woman is uncomfortable.  (respect space...etc.)

c)  Never put yourself and the woman in a situation where others can interpret something inappropriately.  

 

It's a very touchy (no pun intended) subject that everyone needs to be always cognizant of.  

[Whistlebritches]

37 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I’m with NM. I hope you’re joking on the last part. Men who can’t control themselves in the presence of women shouldn’t be in any positions of power anywhere. Especially not in government. Refusing to be around women is a very sexist solution, as if they’re the ones who are causing the problem.

Pence either doesn't trust himself around a woman in a 1-on-1 situation or he doesn't trust her to not make false accusations.

 

I'm not sure which is worse.

[Moiraine]

9 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

In no way shape or form am I supporting Pence.  I don't know enough about his policy to do so.  But, there is a big area between being cognizant of being in situations with women alone where something can be construed to be inappropriate and....."refusing to be around women."

 

I don't "refuse to be around women".  I have a lot of women in my company that are key people that I work very close with.  But, I am also very cautious not to do anything that can end up being interpreted like what Biden's actions are characterized as.  Three things are important:

 

a)  Respect the contribution women give and give them every opportunity everyone else has in the company.

b)  Never put yourself in a  position where the woman is uncomfortable.  (respect space...etc.)

c)  Never put yourself and the woman in a situation where others can interpret something inappropriately.  

 

It's a very touchy (no pun intended) subject that everyone needs to be always cognizant of.  

 

 

 

I’m coming at this mostly from a work perspective. I.e. if you would take one of your male employees out to lunch alone you should be willing to do the same with a female employee. Otherwise even if you’re not conscious of it, you’re giving him a better opportunity to get promoted by default of getting to know him better. (I’ve never been on a 1 on 1 lunch with my female boss so I’m sure there are lots it places this doesn’t apply at all).

 

And obviously don’t nuzzle the back of either of their heads

 

 

I will say... just going off on a small, barely-related tangent, the only problem I have with an office work environment so far, in the 3 years I’ve worked in one, is I don’t get included in sports conversations. It’s assumed I’m not interested. I try to interject sometimes but it doesn’t seem to help.

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

I’m coming at this mostly from a work perspective. I.e. if you would take one of your male employees out to lunch alone you should be willing to do the same with a female employee. Otherwise even if you’re not conscious of it, you’re giving him a better opportunity to get promoted by default of getting to know him better. 

 

And obviously don’t nuzzle the back of either of their heads

 

I have no problem taking an individual to lunch no matter gender.  It's public and that's a normal business activity.  An example of what I"m talking about is the fact that all offices here have windows in the doors.  I"m alone with both men and women in my office all the time....many times with the door shut.  However, I would be uncomfortable doing so with a woman, behind closed doors.  I have no reason to be with anyone in my office where others can't see what we are doing and how we are interacting with each other.  

[Moiraine]

8 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

I have no problem taking an individual to lunch no matter gender.  It's public and that's a normal business activity.  An example of what I"m talking about is the fact that all offices here have windows in the doors.  I"m alone with both men and women in my office all the time....many times with the door shut.  However, I would be uncomfortable doing so with a woman, behind closed doors.  I have no reason to be with anyone in my office where others can't see what we are doing and how we are interacting with each other.  

 

 

Ya, I don’t disagree with that.

 

This reminds me, I’ve posted about it before but I became good friends with a coworker at my previous place who was in her early 20s at the time and she would come up behind me and touch my shoulders or play with my hair and I had to tell her a couple times I don’t want her to do that kind of thing at work. She’s also Chinese so I kind of get the feeling it never entered her head anyone would think anything of it. I’m pretty sure they try to pretend people aren’t gay there. 

[BigRedBuster]

7 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Ya, I don’t disagree with that.

 

This reminds me, I’ve posted about it before but I became good friends with a coworker at my previous place who was in her early 20s at the time and she would come up behind me and touch my shoulders or play with my hair and I had to tell her a couple times I don’t want her to do that kind of thing at work. She’s also Chinese so I kind of get the feeling it never entered her head anyone would think anything of it. I’m pretty sure they try to pretend people aren’t gay there. 

 

Rule of thumb.  Don't touch a woman anywhere other than shaking her hand.

 

An interesting story about your "lunch" example.  

 

Years ago, I was at a conference.  I sat by this woman who was very nice, professional, knowledgable...etc.  We talked a lot during the conference about the subject at hand and got to know each other.  After the first day, it was clear neither of us knew anyone else there.  When we got up, I simply asked, "hey, want to go grab dinner somewhere".  Instantly, I could tell she was uncomfortable with the offer and declined.

Honestly, it wasn't anything that I wouldn't have said to a guy sitting beside me all day in the same situation.

 

It's just an example of how things can be interpreted wrong when they weren't intended to be.  Her reaction stuck with me enough that I still remember it.

[Landlord]

Some context on the Pence "Billy Graham Rule" behavior:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule

 

In 1948, Graham held a series of evangelistic meetings in Modesto, California. Together with Cliff Barrows, Grady Wilson and George Beverly Shea, he resolved to "avoid any situation that would have even the appearance of compromise or suspicion".[2] The accountability agreement, which has become known as the "Modesto Manifesto",[3] covered not only their interactions with women, but also commitments to integrity with respect to finances, their interactions with local churches, and publicity.[4] Since that time, Graham made a point of not traveling, meeting, or eating alone with a woman other than his wife Ruth.[5] Graham biographer Grant Wacker observed that "Over the years Graham received intense media scrutiny, but hardly anyone accused him of violating any of those four principles."

[TGHusker]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

In no way shape or form am I supporting Pence.  I don't know enough about his policy to do so.  But, there is a big area between being cognizant of being in situations with women alone where something can be construed to be inappropriate and....."refusing to be around women."

 

I don't "refuse to be around women".  I have a lot of women in my company that are key people that I work very close with.  But, I am also very cautious not to do anything that can end up being interpreted like what Biden's actions are characterized as.  Three things are important:

 

a)  Respect the contribution women give and give them every opportunity everyone else has in the company.

b)  Never put yourself in a  position where the woman is uncomfortable.  (respect space...etc.)

c)  Never put yourself and the woman in a situation where others can interpret something inappropriately.  

 

It's a very touchy (no pun intended) subject that everyone needs to be always cognizant of.  

I think BRB summed up my position.   This has nothing to do wt Pence's politics or supporting those politics.  Mike Pence models himself after Billy Graham in the way  that he didn't ever want to be in a compromising situation.  It isn't a matter of the man or women not having control - it is that we live in an era of time when men (and women) do things they shouldn't and men(an women) can also make false accusation.   This should not create a glass ceiling nor should it get in the way of appropriate business relationships. 

 

I've seen it cut both ways at work - I've seen a man do inappropriate things in which HR was called in to investigate  and I've seen a man being false accused (after HR got all of the details). 

 

The greater problem in some ways the culture today makes it riskier to show compassion, touch, or to talk to people in an intimate but none sexual way at work - such as when someone is going through great loss, grief, pain, etc.  Does a guy give a gal going through pain a compassionate hug, or say deep compassionate caring things or does he hold off in case he violate some HR rule or the person in pain take his intentions wrongly.  Or reverse the roles - the man going through loss. 

 

[NM11046]

3 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

I’m coming at this mostly from a work perspective. I.e. if you would take one of your male employees out to lunch alone you should be willing to do the same with a female employee. Otherwise even if you’re not conscious of it, you’re giving him a better opportunity to get promoted by default of getting to know him better. (I’ve never been on a 1 on 1 lunch with my female boss so I’m sure there are lots it places this doesn’t apply at all).

 

And obviously don’t nuzzle the back of either of their heads

 

 

I will say... just going off on a small, barely-related tangent, the only problem I have with an office work environment so far, in the 3 years I’ve worked in one, is I don’t get included in sports conversations. It’s assumed I’m not interested. I try to interject sometimes but it doesn’t seem to help.

This:  I’m coming at this mostly from a work perspective. I.e. if you would take one of your male employees out to lunch alone you should be willing to do the same with a female employee. Otherwise even if you’re not conscious of it, you’re giving him a better opportunity to get promoted by default of getting to know him better.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, as I think many of us are on the same page here, but this is an example of privilege - we hear a lot about white privilege, but not as much about male privilege.  I point it out only because I think often times it's hard to define, and once you're aware it's easier to do so and make adjustments.  How many women get asked to golf with the management team?  Get offered courtside seats etc.  (and Moiraine I've had the same situation with sports talk, it only takes me showing them up once before that changes, I'm sure you're the same).

 

I had the conversation recently with my boss, who I am very close to - I'd say as a friend relationship we're closer than others at the company.  When I approached him and a group of male colleagues recently they stopped talking.  When I asked what the topic was they said it wasn't about me, it just was not appropriate to say in front of me,, bad language and such (eyeroll) so I politely pointed out that I can drop 'F-bombs" with the best of them, so if they felt something was too salty for me to hear, then it probably wasn't an appropriate work topic.  I'm no prude, so if they clammed up it was bad.  He thanked me afterward and I know will be aware moving forward.

 

Similar note - Valerie Jarrett had a book come out (yesterday?) and there are some great examples of Obama WH time where she had to help them be aware of privilege.  A good practice of women supporting women by repeating ideas and giving credit instead of letting men talk over them in meetings - it's a real issue.

[BigRedBuster]

12 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Similar note - Valerie Jarrett had a book come out (yesterday?) and there are some great examples of Obama WH time where she had to help them be aware of privilege.  A good practice of women supporting women by repeating ideas and giving credit instead of letting men talk over them in meetings - it's a real issue.

 

This is an interesting subject.

 

Being the boss, I lead a number of meetings all the time.  I try to lead meetings in a way that allows people to brain storm and express their opinions.  Heck, a perfect meeting for me is if I start the conversation and don't say much else and the team discusses and resolves the issue themselves.  Well, sometimes, it's needed to cut people off and steer the conversation in a different direction.  I do it quite often and consciously try to do it in a way that is constructive and not disrespectful.  I do it all the time to men.  One time I had a woman come unglued telling me to NOT cut her off and chewed my a$$ about how disrespectful I was.  OK, there are a few people in my company (men and women) that will ramble on and on if you let them and waste the team's time.  She is one of them.  And at times in meetings, they need cut off.

 

I'm only telling this story because I can imagine how frustrating it is to be a woman and not be respected in the company.  My wife complains about it at times.  I totally respect that.  But....the same situation can cause frustration from the other side too and both men and women need to be cognizant of it and be respectful.

[NM11046]

Totally get that BRB - good on you for being aware.  I was a manager for a number of years and it's the toughest gig out there.  After those situations you get to do those "one on one" coaching discussions about an individual's behavior.  Ick.