The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[NM11046]

Just want to say thanks guys - I think this has been a super dialogue.  

[BigRedBuster]

11 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Well that's a problem for everybody. We have a two party system, each with a platform that not everyone in the party agrees on, and policies the Party won't necessarily fight for if elected. Compromise and course changes are supposed to be baked into the checks and balances.

Hmmm...doesn't seem to be that way since the majority of Americans are stead fast on voting for one party or the other and supporting and defending whatever that party proposes or does.

 

11 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

And remember, the wealth taxes proposed by both Warren and Sanders do not mean putting an end to billionaires. Billionaires will continue to live exceptionally, and the taxes are not nearly as high as they were under Eisenhower, back when America was presumably Great.  The fact that hardworking Americans worry about a War On Billionaires only shows how messed up the messaging has gotten.

I understand that billionaires won't cease to exist.  But, I don't support the attitude that they SHOULDN'T exist.  And, I believe both Warren and Sanders have expressed that.  I know Sanders has.

 

It's a mindset that I can't support.

[TGHusker]

45 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

The problem, at least for me, is that being an independent person, I can pick and choose which policies I like.  I honestly don't think you can lump me into any group with a label.  So, while I am in favor of major changes to our healthcare system which could include MCA...I don't agree with Bernie on his attitude towards "billionaires shouldn't exist" and a wealth tax...as an example.  While I do believe our tax system should be reinvented so that the wealthy are paying an appropriate amount, I'm not comfortable with the rhetoric about it coming from people like Bernie.  I completely agree that the cost of college education needs to be fixed.  But, I don't support free college for everyone.   On the flip side, I am all in favor of the smallest government possible.  However, I don't agree with the extreme right that all government is bad.  While I do consider myself a capitalist, I understand that there have always been parts of our society that is socialistic (roads, military, police, schools...etc.) and that is good.  While I support the thought of as low of taxes as possible, I firmly understand that the government has to function and pay it's bills.  While I fully understand that a developed society should have safety nets to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I firmly believe there is a HUGE amount of waste and corruption in the system that should be limited as much as possible.  While I fully understand we need to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I also believe we shouldn't promote dependence on government.

 

So....While I support some things that candidates like Bernie and Warren support, I also support things that people on the right support.  It makes me puke that I have to vote for someone that is all in one direction and demonizes the other side so much that there can't be common ground found.

I believe you captured my thoughts on this as well. 

 

Let's start with this - I think we do need true reform of how campaigns are financed while simultaneously we need a true swamp cleaning in Washington - not the sham Trump  presented with his  drain the swamp verbiage.  We have to drive change by first driving special interest big money out of our elections which also captures our congressmen to act  in ways that line the pockets of corporations and the pockets of the same congressmen while not addressing the real needs of the ave American. Stop the revolving door from congress to corporate advisor.  

 

This may sound very much like a Bernie thing.  If so, then so be it. We won't get the types of reforms in education, infrastructure, smaller govt, healthcare until this revolving door is closed -  

Big money buys a candidates - sustains the candidate while in office - provides a job for him when he leaves office. 

The candidate does the bidding of big money throughout.   Thus we wonder why nothing gets fixed. 

 

We won't see the reform that both conservatives and liberals want until big money is out of the equation.  Again, I think most honest people want the same thing but have different paths to getting there.

 

So maybe, thinking out loud here, we may need something radical (radical to us traditional conservatives but not radical in the sense of 1960s revolutionary radical) like having a Warren or a Bernie sweep some of these needed changes into action.  We know the status quo GOP isn't going to do it.   We know a Hillary type won't do it.  Trump/GOP swamp cleaning is a sham and we all know it.    Ok, I may have just talked myself into voting for Bernie after all. 

14 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Well that's a problem for everybody. We have a two party system, each with a platform that not everyone in the party agrees on, and policies the Party won't necessarily fight for if elected. Compromise and course changes are supposed to be baked into the checks and balances.

 

At this point -- a point where Ronald Reagan would be viewed as a squishy moderate by the GOP — we need a strong progressive push merely to get back to center. I think we're ready to talk about ambitious new directions in healthcare, education and tax structure, just to see where they lead. 

Good points Guy.   I'm kind of saying the same thing above.  It is time for some new ideas.  The status quo (by both parties) hasn't accomplished much change in years.  You know my respect for Reagan - and yes today he would be considered very much a moderate.  Unfortunately over the past 30 years the GOP has moved his message more and more to the right- more than what Reagan himself would have agreed wt.  Like he said back so many years ago - when he noted that he didn't leave the Dem party, the Dem party left him,  I believe he'd say the same things about the GOP now. He wouldn't recognize it. 

[BigRedBuster]

3 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

So maybe, thinking out loud here, we may need something radical (radical to us traditional conservatives but not radical in the sense of 1960s revolutionary radical) like having a Warren or a Bernie sweep some of these needed changes into action.  We know the status quo GOP isn't going to do it.   We know a Hillary type won't do it.  Trump/GOP swamp cleaning is a sham and we all know it.    Ok, I may have just talked myself into voting for Bernie after all. 

 

If Bernie would come into office with two major issues to address.....Healthcare and campaign reform.....I'd be very interested.

The rest of the stuff would take care of itself if we could first fix our campaigns.  I firmly believe that the biggest problem with most issues is that the special interests get involved and don't really tell the whole story.  The public gets buffaloed one way or the other and politicians get bought out from one side or the other and .....well....here we are.

 

Fix elections so that more true information is available and the elected officials aren't beholding to special interests or voted in with gerrymandering....and let the cards fall where they may.

[TGHusker]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

If Bernie would come into office with two major issues to address.....Healthcare and campaign reform.....I'd be very interested.

The rest of the stuff would take care of itself if we could first fix our campaigns.  I firmly believe that the biggest problem with most issues is that the special interests get involved and don't really tell the whole story.  The public gets buffaloed one way or the other and politicians get bought out from one side or the other and .....well....here we are.

 

Fix elections so that more true information is available and the elected officials aren't beholding to special interests or voted in with gerrymandering....and let the cards fall where they may.

agreed  --   campaign reform and health care would be good places to start.    AOC Green Deal ideas, taxing high income people where there is little reward to be innovative, or large wealth redistribution plans scare people away from the message. 

 

I think the best way to implement change is to do it incrementally  and not the whole wish list at one time.  This I think is what scare moderate people - Bernie wants to change everything all at once. It looks like massive change - we may not like what we have now but there is a comfort level only in the fact that it is "known".  Change brings stress and massive change brings massive stress.  But if Bernie could communicate a few things well and lay out the plan well, then he may have more ears to hear him out. 

[NM11046]

@TGHusker I think only Bernie has said there should be no billionaires - Liz just wants them to pay up their equal share (unless she has been quoted differently

in the last few days)

[Ratt Mhule]

13 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

agreed  --   campaign reform and health care would be good places to start.    AOC Green Deal ideas, taxing high income people where there is little reward to be innovative, or large wealth redistribution plans scare people away from the message. 

 

I think the best way to implement change is to do it incrementally  and not the whole wish list at one time.  This I think is what scare moderate people - Bernie wants to change everything all at once. It looks like massive change - we may not like what we have now but there is a comfort level only in the fact that it is "known".  Change brings stress and massive change brings massive stress.  But if Bernie could communicate a few things well and lay out the plan well, then he may have more ears to hear him out. 

 

And climate change scares young people.

[TGHusker]

8 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

 

And climate change scares young people.

It may/should  scare all of us if we think seriously about it.   Again, I am think of what is palatable to the regular voter who will decide this election.  Build the case for campaign reform and health care & I think you get more of those regular voters on board.  Then address the issue that many people dismiss as being 'far out into the future- it doesn't affect me now."  Get the nose of the camel inside the tent first.  

[TGHusker]

10 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

@TGHusker I think only Bernie has said there should be no billionaires - Liz just wants them to pay up their equal share (unless she has been quoted differently

in the last few days)

I think you are correct on this.    That is why I think Liz would be an easier 'sell' in the general election. 

[deedsker]

Linky Link

 

A little dated, but I think this applies to what a lot of people are saying. Mind blowing when he compares the US elite (Max donors to political campaigns) to that of the Chinese proposal with Hong Kong.

 

Interesting follow up if you have lots of time 

[TGHusker]

To me, it seems that in the Dem primaries, we are throwing a lot on the wall and seeing what sticks.  The lot of mud slinging on the wall makes it appear that we have  a big race to the left which concerns too many people in the middle.  I think the Dem messaging would be better if they focus real well on just a few things, point out the failures of this admin and others before it, and lay out a path on how they will fix it.  People can handle change if is is articulated well and they know where that change is going to take them.  Then they can process it and become comfortable with it even before it is implemented.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

1 minute ago, TGHusker said:

To me, it seems that in the Dem primaries, we are throwing a lot on the wall and seeing what sticks.  The lot of mud slinging on the wall makes it appear that we have  a big race to the left which concerns too many people in the middle.  I think the Dem messaging would be better if they focus real well on just a few things, point out the failures of this admin and other before it, and lay out a path on how they will fix it.  People can handle change if is is articulated well and they know where that change is going to take them.  Then they can process it and become comfortable with it even before it is implemented.  

 

I worry that we will spend a disproportionate amount of time on transgender bathrooms. 

[Ratt Mhule]

10 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

It may/should  scare all of us if we think seriously about it.   Again, I am think of what is palatable to the regular voter who will decide this election.  Build the case for campaign reform and health care & I think you get more of those regular voters on board.  Then address the issue that many people dismiss as being 'far out into the future- it doesn't affect me now."  Get the nose of the camel inside the tent first.  

 

That's the thing, UN scientists are saying we have 11 years to cut emissions in half or there is nothing we can do to stop the damage that will be done.  So this is a big issue for younger generations and frankly it should be a big issue for older generations with kids and grandkids.  I get that big change can be scary and its better to do little things at a time.  With healthcare and climate change, I think it needs to be asap.

[Ratt Mhule]

We found our climate denier that is laughing at the post above.  Instead of laughing, come out and tell everyone why you don't believe in science.  This is not me saying this stuff, its UN scientists.  Very easy to find on google.

[Moiraine]

22 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

That's the thing, UN scientists are saying we have 11 years to cut emissions in half or there is nothing we can do to stop the damage that will be done.  So this is a big issue for younger generations and frankly it should be a big issue for older generations with kids and grandkids.  I get that big change can be scary and its better to do little things at a time.  With healthcare and climate change, I think it needs to be asap.

 

 

I got into an argument with a cousin once on FB where he mocked Obama for saying climate change was really important while ISIS existed. I'm guessing he thinks ISIS isn't a big deal now and neither is climate change.