The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[Danny Bateman]

1 hour ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

ROGAN: I’d rather vote for Trump than [Biden]. I don’t think he can handle anything. You’re relying entirely on his cabinet.

 

This kind of made me laugh....uhhh yeah give me Biden and competent cabinet over Trump. I don't think Trump can handle much of anything either (see: Covid 19), and he's surrounded himself with Kushner, Barr, Conway, Mnuchin, Miller - basically a cabinet of yes men who are trying to line their own pockets. Give me Biden + Competent cabinet everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. 

 

I'm open to a reasonable discussion why one would vote Trump rather than Biden. Given my disgust with the former it's not likely to convince me but I'd listen and engage with someone if they tried.

 

The reasons Rogan gave (particularly that cabinets shouldn't be relied on) are absolutely idiotic.

[Danny Bateman]

A very interesting but dense read from a Sanders supporter about their concern fellow progressives are being fed weaponized disinformation to manipulate them and how it's potentially coming from Trump's digital ad campaign.

 

Food for thought. It would probably be a useful venture with as much money as they have and a worrying trend for those of us who want to see him ousted in the fall.

[FrantzHardySwag]

38 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I'm open to a reasonable discussion why one would vote Trump rather than Biden. Given my disgust with the former it's not likely to convince me but I'd listen and engage with someone if they tried.

 

The reasons Rogan gave (particularly that cabinets shouldn't be relied on) are absolutely idiotic.

Good leaders surround themselves with smarter better people, so far Biden’s gotten Mayor Pete, Yang, Kamala to buy in- and before this is done he could have Obama, Warren and hell maybe even Bernie. I have no doubt Biden will surround himself with damn good people. 

[Danny Bateman]

28 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

He'll have to.  He's a pathological liar, a cheater, and sexual predator (alleged).  If he doesn't, he sounds a lot like Trump.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

2 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

It's not garbage if I think it could actually pass into law and the current iteration of single-payer doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

 

Bernie's home state of Vermont aggressively tried to pass a single-payer plan for universal coverage. It failed because it was going to be too expensive and the governor would not support 11.5% payroll tax and 9% income tax increases that could've paid for it.

My worries with a public option is there will be no risk pool in the public plan. The sick and elderly will be pushed off into the public plan while the healthy and young will keep private plans. The insurance companies will then be able to lower premiums and raise deductibles. The public plan will struggle with funding and quality. The way private insurance works now is there is a risk pool. You have healthy people essentially subsidizing the sick with their premium payments. That wont be the case with the public option. And then when we revisit the debate in 2024 the moderates can say MFA isnt the way to go because private insurance is cheap and the govt plan is struggling with funding and quality so we need to go back to private insurance. I can see it now and its a bad thought. I also think Biden will have to raise taxes on everyone to fund it. So not only will my taxes go up for a plan I wont use, but I will also have to pay the insurance company a monthly premium and deductibles if I ever use it. 
 

With MFA, everyone pays in and everyone benefits. People have incentive to make sure it works bc even rich people do not want the quality to suffer. There is a risk pool so it wont be overburdened with sick people and elderly people. Im sure some doctors will not participate and the rich will pay out of pocket to these doctors but there will be some rich people that use the plan. Like I said above, they will have an incentive to make sure it doesnt fail for their benefit and that helps keep quality good. 

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

My worries with a public option is there will be no risk pool in the public plan. The sick and elderly will be pushed off into the public plan while the healthy and young will keep private plans. The insurance companies will then be able to lower premiums and raise deductibles. The public plan will struggle with funding and quality. The way private insurance works now is there is a risk pool. You have healthy people essentially subsidizing the sick with their premium payments. That wont be the case with the public option. And then when we revisit the debate in 2024 the moderates can say MFA isnt the way to go because private insurance is cheap and the govt plan is struggling with funding and quality so we need to go back to private insurance. I can see it now and its a bad thought. I also think Biden will have to raise taxes on everyone to fund it. So not only will my taxes go up for a plan I wont use, but I will also have to pay the insurance company a monthly premium and deductibles if I ever use it. 
 

With MFA, everyone pays in and everyone benefits. People have incentive to make sure it works bc even rich people do not want the quality to suffer. There is a risk pool so it wont be overburdened with sick people and elderly people. Im sure some doctors will not participate and the rich will pay out of pocket to these doctors but there will be some rich people that use the plan. Like I said above, they will have an incentive to make sure it doesnt fail for their benefit and that helps keep quality good. 

Yes, exactly.

[knapplc]

47 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

He'll have to.  He's a pathological liar, a cheater, and sexual predator (alleged).  If he doesn't, he sounds a lot like Trump.

 

And Bernie supporters wonder why the voters they needed to court were turned off by them and their candidate. 

 

Such a mystery.

[Danny Bateman]

16 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

My worries with a public option is there will be no risk pool in the public plan. The sick and elderly will be pushed off into the public plan while the healthy and young will keep private plans. The insurance companies will then be able to lower premiums and raise deductibles. The public plan will struggle with funding and quality. The way private insurance works now is there is a risk pool. You have healthy people essentially subsidizing the sick with their premium payments. That wont be the case with the public option. And then when we revisit the debate in 2024 the moderates can say MFA isnt the way to go because private insurance is cheap and the govt plan is struggling with funding and quality so we need to go back to private insurance. I can see it now and its a bad thought. I also think Biden will have to raise taxes on everyone to fund it. So not only will my taxes go up for a plan I wont use, but I will also have to pay the insurance company a monthly premium and deductibles if I ever use it. 
 

With MFA, everyone pays in and everyone benefits. People have incentive to make sure it works bc even rich people do not want the quality to suffer. There is a risk pool so it wont be overburdened with sick people and elderly people. Im sure some doctors will not participate and the rich will pay out of pocket to these doctors but there will be some rich people that use the plan. Like I said above, they will have an incentive to make sure it doesnt fail for their benefit and that helps keep quality good. 

 

I agree that the public option plans present flaws. They are certainly not perfect. And clearly M4A is popular with people. As is public option, actually. Improving healthcare is popular.

 

We agree on a lot of goals. If I could snap my fingers and make single-payer happen, would I do it? Absolutely. Especially if I could sidestep the massive upheaval to our current system (e.g., phasing out entire segments of the economy, millions of people transitioning out of their current jobs in insurance, etc.). If I could go back in time and start America from scratch with a single-payer system before we ever embarked on a doomed path of employer-sponsored insurance, I would.

 

But I can't. And I don't share your optimism something as radical as M4A - if we're being honest, it proposes the furthest left healthcare system of anywhere in the world, considering things like blanket bans on private insurance, no copays/deductibles, hard caps on medication prices - could ever get implemented in our system. There's just no roadmap through the Senate for this bill in its current form. At best I think it gets watered down to public-option territory, which I'm already fine with.

Improving healthcare with a public option, even if it is flawed, is better than the status quo.

[Notre Dame Joe]

2 hours ago, Frott Scost said:

My worries with a public option is there will be no risk pool in the public plan. The sick and elderly will be pushed off into the public plan while the healthy and young will keep private plans. The insurance companies will then be able to lower premiums and raise deductibles. The public plan will struggle with funding and quality. The way private insurance works now is there is a risk pool. You have healthy people essentially subsidizing the sick with their premium payments. That wont be the case with the public option. And then when we revisit the debate in 2024 the moderates can say MFA isnt the way to go because private insurance is cheap and the govt plan is struggling with funding and quality so we need to go back to private insurance. I can see it now and its a bad thought. I also think Biden will have to raise taxes on everyone to fund it. So not only will my taxes go up for a plan I wont use, but I will also have to pay the insurance company a monthly premium and deductibles if I ever use it. 
 

With MFA, everyone pays in and everyone benefits. People have incentive to make sure it works bc even rich people do not want the quality to suffer. There is a risk pool so it wont be overburdened with sick people and elderly people. Im sure some doctors will not participate and the rich will pay out of pocket to these doctors but there will be some rich people that use the plan. Like I said above, they will have an incentive to make sure it doesnt fail for their benefit and that helps keep quality good. 

Actual socialism has no incentive at all, pretty much by definition.  The exception is the rich who won't use it but instead by private healthcare. 

[Ratt Mhule]

1 hour ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Actual socialism has no incentive at all, pretty much by definition.  The exception is the rich who won't use it but instead by private healthcare. 

Oh the govt was going to be taking over the hospitals, clinics, imaging sites and all the means of healthcare production also? I must have missed that part. Silly me. 

[Landlord]

6 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I'm open to a reasonable discussion why one would vote Trump rather than Biden. Given my disgust with the former it's not likely to convince me but I'd listen and engage with someone if they tried.

 

The reasons Rogan gave (particularly that cabinets shouldn't be relied on) are absolutely idiotic.

 

 

Also a very fair point, but aside from the distinction of words where he didn't say he would vote for Trump, there's also, I think, an important note of the context of his words. This wasn't Rogan getting in front of reporters or doing press trying to make a statement - this was just him shooting the s#!t off the cuff with a friend/acquaintance. Maybe he meant it 100% literally. Maybe he was being hyperbolic in a conversation. I don't know for sure but that's not an unreasonable interpretation. Rogan's show is unscripted, unpolished, live and raw. He also doesn't give a s#!t about what media/public try to say about him, in the sense that he doesn't ever clarify remarks or apologize with PR, stuff like that. 

 

Now if he really genuinely meant it, I disagree and couldn't see how he would possibly be able to vote for Trump. I'd say that's wrong, flat out. But I couldn't say the same for people unwilling to participate at all and unwilling to vote for Biden. Day by day I keep thinking more about the possibility that if Biden wins (I don't think he can, truthfully) it will be a tepid uninspired four years and might open up the floodgates to a real totalitarian who is competent, sharp, and charismatic. If I was absolutely convinced of that happening, I would not vote, or in the slightest chance maybe vote for Trump because I think the long game of surviving four more years of s#!t would be the springboard into some truly remarkable and legitimate progress.

[Danny Bateman]

52 minutes ago, Landlord said:

Also a very fair point, but aside from the distinction of words where he didn't say he would vote for Trump, there's also, I think, an important note of the context of his words. This wasn't Rogan getting in front of reporters or doing press trying to make a statement - this was just him shooting the s#!t off the cuff with a friend/acquaintance. Maybe he meant it 100% literally. Maybe he was being hyperbolic in a conversation. I don't know for sure but that's not an unreasonable interpretation. Rogan's show is unscripted, unpolished, live and raw. He also doesn't give a s#!t about what media/public try to say about him, in the sense that he doesn't ever clarify remarks or apologize with PR, stuff like that. 

 

Now if he really genuinely meant it, I disagree and couldn't see how he would possibly be able to vote for Trump. I'd say that's wrong, flat out. But I couldn't say the same for people unwilling to participate at all and unwilling to vote for Biden. Day by day I keep thinking more about the possibility that if Biden wins (I don't think he can, truthfully) it will be a tepid uninspired four years and might open up the floodgates to a real totalitarian who is competent, sharp, and charismatic. If I was absolutely convinced of that happening, I would not vote, or in the slightest chance maybe vote for Trump because I think the long game of surviving four more years of s#!t would be the springboard into some truly remarkable and legitimate progress.

 

Don't mind Rogan as I love MMA and he's a pretty memeworthy announcer. I've heard his podcast is good. He's got some cultural views we don't share. A lot of this depends on who you interact with but I myself have never been remotely in a position to consider voting against ANY of the Democratic candidates or even want to. I'd have gotten behind Gabbard or Bloomberg enthusiastically and I think they're hot garbage.

 

I get the impulse to worry about Trump's GOP successor. This conversation, and what Rogan seems to have been intimating, are approaching support for accelerationism politics: That if we let things get really, really bad under Trump and the GOP, somehow society will snap back and suddenly lurch aggressively to the left and support progressive reforms.

 

I've always resisted that thought process because there are far too many variables and unknowns for us to know what "really, really bad" even looks like. We are starting to get glimpses now. But we do know they will use every bit of their power to hamstring and obstruct any opposition.

[teachercd]

33 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

 

I tend to agree with this...there have been quite a few articles talking about another Run for Hillary or swapping Cuomo in for Biden at the DNC.

 

At the very least, this keeps the DNC honest.

I have heard the Hillary rumor a few times...

 

It makes a lot of sense but I just can't see her wanting to go through it again and lose again and really be known as the most unlikeable human ever.

[Notre Dame Joe]

8 hours ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

 

I tend to agree with this...there have been quite a few articles talking about another Run for Hillary or swapping Cuomo in for Biden at the DNC.

 

 

You tease.

[FrantzHardySwag]

14 hours ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

 

I tend to agree with this...there have been quite a few articles talking about another Run for Hillary or swapping Cuomo in for Biden at the DNC.

 

At the very least, this keeps the DNC honest.

Man I like Bernie and his policies but this type of BS is reminding me of MAGAs and the deep state crap.