Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[BigRedBuster]

Interesting.

 

 

 

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"Rape is a crime. But insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is gallantry a chauvinist aggression," the letter begins. "As a result of the Weinstein affair, there has been a legitimate realization of the sexual violence women experience, particularly in the workplace, where some men abuse their power. It was necessary. But now this liberation of speech has been turned on its head."

 

"They contend that the #MeToo movement has led to a campaign of public accusations that have placed undeserving people in the same category as sex offenders without giving them a chance to defend themselves. "This expedited justice already has its victims, men prevented from practicing their profession as punishment, forced to resign, etc., while the only thing they did wrong was touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about 'intimate' things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual," they write."

 

 

[zoogs]

This is a good example of examining misogyny in a performance -- these are things that I feel usually do go unexamined, or worse, the examiners are shrugged off as shrill or "reading too much into things" or focusing on the wrong aspects of the art.

 

(btw: Although this looks like it came from a paper in 1982, it's actually from 2014)

[zoogs]

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“Frankly I don’t think it’s that fair that they can air him out publicly and they can stay behind a curtain, but that’s my own thought. If you print that my wife will probably kill me,” Pacyga said. (Sorry!)

 

[zoogs]

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/5/16705284/misogyny-trump-sexism-patriarchy-weinstein

 

I really enjoyed this interview. I often wonder whether to describe something as sexist or misogynist and Prof. Manne draws an insightful distinction between the two. Specifically, I've tended to think of the latter term as describing an active hostility towards women, but Manne argues that we should think of it as the system that "rewards women who reinforce the status quo and punishes those who don't." How it's the mechanism that enforces the patriarchy, in contrast to the ideology that justifies it.

 

It's tough to select one passage, but I think this is a well-worded reminder:
 

Quote

 

I’m less interested in assignments of blame or holding people accountable in direct ways for their perpetuation of misogyny, and I’m more interested in having us understand the ways in which most, if not all of us, tend to be complicit in misogynistic social systems.

 

I wanted to know how we police women, how we keep them in their place, in their designated lane. We can combat this, and it’s not like we all have to purify ourselves or something. But we have to be aware of the unconscious biases and cultural norms that sustain all of this.

 

 

[zoogs]

So here's a follow-up on the Dan Harmon story, from him: https://slate.com/arts/2018/01/dan-harmon-apologizes-to-community-writer-megan-ganz-on-harmontown.html

 

 

Quote

 

Harmon prefaces the confession by explaining that while he heard from others who recommended he not talk about his behavior toward Ganz on the podcast, he chose to follow the advice of female colleagues who suggested that the best way to stop being “part of the problem” would be to speak out.

 

Harmon also repeatedly warned listeners not to attack Ganz and did not call her by her name as he laid out the details: While serving as Community’s showrunner, he had a yearslong crush on Ganz and behaved in a “flirty, creepy” manner. When she did not reciprocate, he retaliated. “I drank. I took pills. I crushed on her and resented her for not reciprocating it,” he explained. “And the entire time I was the one writing her paychecks and in control of whether she stayed or went and whether she felt good about herself or not, and said horrible things.”

 

It might be more accurate to call it an explanation than an apology, but what’s refreshing is that Harmon explains the ways he thought and acted at the time without making excuses or throwing himself a pity party. Instead, he uses the entire experience to urge others to consider their own actions and attitudes toward women in the workplace: “I think that we’re living in a good time right now, because we’re not gonna get away with it anymore. And if we can make it a normal part of our culture that we think about it and possibly talk about it, then maybe we can get to a better place where that stuff doesn’t happen.” Other sexual harassers should take note.

 

Ganz, for her part, expressed her relief at Harmon publicly acknowledging his actions and responded by publicly forgiving him, calling the seven-minute monologue “a masterclass in How to Apologize.”

 

 

I agree with the third paragraph, and I think there's some credit here where it's due.

[zoogs]

This makes me shake with anger. It's revolting. Infuriating. And the worse of it: not even news. 

 

You might say, but that's "exclusive" footage. A bombshell, to be sure. But go through the rest of the thread. Look at this compilation, published in January 2008: https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2008/01/17/with-women-matthews-administers-the-chris-matth/142193

 

I don't know how you can look and read through that and not want to punch the wall. That's not behind the scenes stuff leaking out, all of it is on air and NOTHING was done. Media Matters put this together and it didn't even make a blip! At least...not much of one, certainly not very lasting. As of today Matthews is an MSNBC host offering an oblique apology for one distasteful off-air utterance. Talk about falling upwards.

 

I don't know what the worst of the cited examples is. I think it's the constant refrain of presenting women as...things that are meant to be beautiful for men's viewing pleasure. 

 

And he's far from the only repulsive misogynists allowed to continue dominating and shaping the media landscape over the next decade, introducing millions to the stories and characters of our day. How do you fight the way men regard the women they talk about, form opinions about, etc, when all this was just the default, the thing nobody civil ever raised a ruckus over? The old normal was pretty f'd up, guys. Time's up for it, and time for a new one. 

[Nebfanatic]

https://www.thefader.com/2018/01/14/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-accusation/amp

 

I like Aziz's work and there are alot of people defending him and his side. Not okay, and what Aziz did is the type of behavior we are trying to eliminate as it is the type of thing that can lead to more entitlement and rape culture. This article leaves out some details that do make it easier to say Aziz did nothing wrong (there is a link at the bottom of the story for a more detailed account) but to me, no matter how far the experience goes, if someone is uncomfortable or wants to stop that is the end of the discussion. Continual pestering and pressuring is one step away from committing actions without consent. 

[NM11046]

I don't disagree with you Neb, but if we consider what she describes as a sexual offense, then whom of us hasn't been in a situation where we've been the accuser or the accused?  I'll have to read the additional article you posted above, but from the one I read yesterday I came away thinking this gal was looking for her 10 mins of fame.  Nobody should be made to be uncomfortable for sure, but when dating (or just hooking up) there are often confusing signals and uncomfortableness even when everything is 100% consensual.  

[zoogs]

@NebfanaticThank you!

 

It's not OK. As much as this is about profound disappointment in Aziz, whose career was built on being exactly not this type of guy, I think the below captures it perfectly:

 

 

I think a lot of us recognize the broad contours of this situation as normal and everyday: guy keeps trying to get woman to 'yes', woman doesn't seem interested, guy keeps doing sex things. I don't know, though. The extent of his disregard for her interest in the activity over his own...if that's common, it absolutely should not be. What should be coming out of all this is a lot of looking at what either we have done or think is OK and go, gosh, maybe it wasn't. Not to double down, which is of course easier. 

 

I don't know what articles the rest of you have been reading. The original is from babe.net, and it's about the woman repeatedly searching for ways to shut down the encounter while Aziz plowed ahead with shoving his fingers down her throat and gesturing at his penis. 

 

[teachercd]

52 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I don't disagree with you Neb, but if we consider what she describes as a sexual offense, then whom of us hasn't been in a situation where we've been the accuser or the accused?  I'll have to read the additional article you posted above, but from the one I read yesterday I came away thinking this gal was looking for her 10 mins of fame.  Nobody should be made to be uncomfortable for sure, but when dating (or just hooking up) there are often confusing signals and uncomfortableness even when everything is 100% consensual.  

 

Really well stated.

[BigRedBuster]

I am so glad I'm not single.

 

Reading the article, something struck me.  She gives this big account of him doing things sexually that she didn't like.  She said no and they didn't have sex.  Now....what struck me was when she said, "they agreed to put their clothes back on".  I don't remember anything in her account that said he took her clothes off without her consent.  She was very specific to point on other things she wasn't wanting....but left out that he took her clothes off without her consent.

So....I have to assume that they undressed each other and that was fully consensual.  Now, they're laying there naked.....and she's shocked that he wants to feel her vagina?....and that he wants her to feel his penis????

 

What am I missing?

 

Now....obviously at some point, he turned her off what what he was doing and ultimately she left without having sex with him.

 

With what that article said....I'm having a hard time thinking this is sexual assault.  There would have to be more to it.

[zoogs]

I will go out on a limb and venture that it's on Aziz that she went home crying in an Uber and not on her. But what was he supposed to do? Stop. It ain't rocket science.

[Nebfanatic]

Also once they agreed to put their clothes back on, 10 minutes later Aziz was trying to get her undressed again. That is a problem. I wouldn't say this is full on sexual assualt, and I don't think Aziz is a bad person if he can learn from his mistakes, but this type of behavior lends itself to a sense of entitlement that can lead to worse behavior. Its not the type of culture we want to create. If her account is mostly accurate I know I wouldn't have continued once she became lifeless and stopped responding physically. It would have felt wrong because it is wrong in my view. 

[BigRedBuster]

Hey...if she says no and puts her clothes back on....then the answer is no.  I agree with that.  But...I still don't find anything in this that is sexual assault.

 

And....just because a woman goes home crying, doesn't mean it's sexual assault either.

 

 

[Nebfanatic]

7 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Hey...if she says no and puts her clothes back on....then the answer is no.  I agree with that.  But...I still don't find anything in this that is sexual assault.

 

And....just because a woman goes home crying, doesn't mean it's sexual assault either.

 

 

I agree its not sexual assualt by a legal definition, but it is something people need to learn from because situations like this may happen more often than sexual assault and that doesn't need to happen. Being persistant can be ok, but there is a point when you start to pressure a person and that is not ok.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Nebfanatic