Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[Moiraine]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

It's a personal essay, right? Or maybe it's a short story. Either way, she's translating personal experiences so as to share and convey them to a broader audience who may not have had the same ones. Isn't that what the medium is for? This isn't meant to be journalistic, clearly. 

 

I cringed, too. It should be discomfiting. I feel like "bad writing" is too easy a way to dismiss it, and it calls to mind all the similar ways we try to undermine the message of other storytellers. 

 

#MeToo as well as what came before hasn't been what you would call a mild movement. I think in finding a permissive space for their voices a lot of anger that's been held back for a long time has been let loose, and with it comes these familiar, diminishing criticisms. And yet it is the anger that holds the reasonable ground, not the side surprised to see it exist and struggling to accept it as valid.

 

 

 

If it's fiction it should be labelled as such. The writing is so terrible to me it makes the whole thing look like a big joke. It lessens the importance of the issues she's writing about. I can't see it doing anything but leading to people being less likely to take women, and the issues they face, seriously.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Moiraine

[zoogs]

On the merits of the prose, incidentally, I shan't be convinced that this was not one of the most perfect description of our ridiculous Pres. ever to be circulated  

 

Quote

one man, miles east, in orange, his appendages beating furiously, his colors outlandish and embarrassing

 

[zoogs]

AFAIK it's a personal essay; I haven't dug deeply. I added the caveat to address your unsubstantiated suspicion that it is inappropriately unattributed fiction.

 

I don't think the author trivializes the issue (a familiar sort of complaint) or hurts her cause (even more familiar). It is not the fault of women that they are not taken seriously, it's certainly not incumbent on women to rectify this, and in my view, the greater damage to the cause is the over-policing -- in some cases, self-policing -- of voices, as if anything less than the perfect words and the perfect medium and the perfect tactics should be repudiated and disclaimed. Sometimes an essay is just a raw expression of feeling -- no conclusion, no call to action. It need not be strategically effective or valuable, although I did find it to be these things, personally.

Edited February 28, 2018 by zoogs

[zoogs]

27 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

People don't talk like this. And they don't generally have too many women to count over a 2-3 week period coming up to them talking about their liberal husbands divorcing them over their feminism and crying out "we have 3 children!"

 

The entire tone was overdramatic. It read like satire.

To address this specifically, I would point out the following:

 

- there is one mention of divorce, and one separate mention of a called-off engagement. 

- the latter "wrote" to her. It seems possible she sought out people in her circles to share their experiences on a topic of concern to her. This is an obvious way many related things might happen in a short amount of time.

- the "many"-ness applies specifically to "disruption" in relationships due to political fallout, which is hardly unbelievable.

 

To turn to more journalistic articles that point to the same topic of concern as an extant trend:

- http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fights-over-trump-drive-couples-especially-millennials-to-split-up/article/2622400

- https://www.bustle.com/p/fights-over-trump-are-leading-to-breakups-divorces-especially-among-millennial-couples-56701

- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trump-presidency-destroying-marriages-country-article-1.3386982

 

(I haven't read any of the above in detail, to be fair. It's more that I felt some of the same things this author did and that's why I came to post it; it's not that I am trying to convince you guys that this is a thing that is happening and we should treat it as important)

[BigRedBuster]

I'm typically not a fan of fictional writing that tries to portray itself as non-fiction about important social issues.

[Moiraine]

54 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I'm typically not a fan of fictional writing that tries to portray itself as non-fiction about important social issues.

 

 

That's the way I felt about it. It was fiction and I felt it made women look weak.

 

Also, @zoogs, I had no issue with those articles. E.g. one of them was about a South American immigrant whose spouse had become very xenophobic since Trump called Mexicans rapists. That's an actual legitimate reason to cause a split in a relationship. 

 

Liberal men being 90% as angry about sexism as the women they're in relationships with isn't a real issue. And the men in the article talk like comic book villains. If someone burns their wife's possessions they have much more mentally wrong with them than being angry their wife is acting too upset about sexism. I happen to not believe that story is real, though.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Moiraine

[BigRedBuster]

I find research like this very interesting.

 

 

[RedDenver]

5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I find research like this very interesting.

 

 

Very interesting. Here's a chart from that article:

[zoogs]

I remain bewildered by the baseless consensus that has been formed here that Amy Butcher's essay was fiction. If any of you can find something to substantiate this, I'd be happy to see it. 

 

Liberal men not being nearly on the same page on this topic is of course real, as real as sexism is, which was never the exclusive domain of conservatives -- and how many examples do we have, publicly, of either bad behavior, complicity, or tone-deafness from powerful liberal men we'd expect better from? It's not everybody, but it's there. I don't believe the frustrations expressed in her article are invalid, and in fact I share them.

 

Lastly, I want to point out how common it is for women who are professionals in their field to have their competency in that area questioned. I realize writing is a subjective thing, and if you weren't a fan of her style, fine. It just feels like we're treating her as a Silly Woman who got worked up and consequently jammed out some incoherent keyboard babble. She is, in fact, an award-winning essayist and a Professor of English -- so if you want to hit at her writing chops, have something to back that up.
--
I feel like it's interesting to consistently find "hey, maybe gender discrimination isn't that real" think pieces interesting to the exclusion of similar demonstrated interest in "here are thoughts on this aspect of gender discrimination". Not that you should have no interest in one, but there's lots of writing to be interested in! 
--
This passage from this article, my goodness. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/nyregion/yale-student-not-guilty-saifullah-khan.html

Quote

 

Mr. Khan’s lawyers worked relentlessly to discredit the account of the woman, who was not identified by name in the arrest warrant application. They asked repeatedly how much she had to drink, and how she could claim not to remember certain details, such as how she arrived back at her dorm room, but remembered others, such as the alleged assault itself. They parsed her text messages with Mr. Khan, asking if she had not been flirting with him in the days before the incident. They showed off her Halloween costume, a black cat outfit, and asked her why she had not chosen a more modest one, such as “Cinderella in a long flowing gown.”

...
Mr. Pattis showed the jury security camera footage of the two walking back to her dorm, in which the ["so intoxicated"] complainant appeared to be leaning on Mr. Khan, her leg dragging slightly behind her.

“Don’t you look like two lovers?” Mr. Pattis asked the woman on the stand.

“No,” she replied.

 

For f#*k's sake. Leaving the adjudication of his actual guilt or innocence aside, how do these lawyers live with themselves? I suppose by imagining they're fighting the good fight. Not for the client, merely, but for the great cultural ideas of the women-don't-matter patriarchy, like If Women Dress Like That They're Asking For It. Their tactics are obviously effective, but disgusting.

[Moiraine]

2 hours ago, zoogs said:

I remain bewildered by the baseless consensus that has been formed here that Amy Butcher's essay was fiction. If any of you can find something to substantiate this, I'd be happy to see it. 

 

Liberal men not being nearly on the same page on this topic is of course real, as real as sexism is, which was never the exclusive domain of conservatives -- and how many examples do we have, publicly, of either bad behavior, complicity, or tone-deafness from powerful liberal men we'd expect better from? It's not everybody, but it's there. I don't believe the frustrations expressed in her article are invalid, and in fact I share them.

 

Lastly, I want to point out how common it is for women who are professionals in their field to have their competency in that area questioned. I realize writing is a subjective thing, and if you weren't a fan of her style, fine. It just feels like we're treating her as a Silly Woman who got worked up and consequently jammed out some incoherent keyboard babble. She is, in fact, an award-winning essayist and a Professor of English -- so if you want to hit at her writing chops, have something to back that up.

 

 

There are liberal men sexually assault, harass, belittle, and think less of women - not sure why you think anyone is questioning that.

 

It was terrible writing, regardless of what awards she's won, and I'm 90% sure it's all fiction. If I was more ignorant about or questioning the validity of the #MeToo movement (I'm not at all) then that article would make me think people were complaining about nothing. I frankly find it embarrassing and hope it never becomes well-read. I just now googled it to see if it was, and it's not. The first comment I read (from another woman): "This essay is hilarious! At first, I wasn't sure if the author was writing satire. Then I realized she was serious. I spit out my coffee."

There's no mention of the one couple that really should have broken up breaking up.

 

Quote

My husband worries about our daughter, she told me recently. That I’m only teaching her she’s a victim.
 

One day, while she was picking their children up from daycare, he burned a handful of her possessions: her Nasty Women shirt, her Hillary Clinton pins.

^ Ya, that person was bats#!t crazy to begin with. None of the rest is relevant. If your spouse burns your stuff, it's time to leave.

I feel like you're not thinking about who's posting about this. I've talked about things as small as the way men use feminine terms to put other men down. It's not baseless to say it's fiction. It reads like fiction. The other links you posted were actually realistic. People acting like normal people act and talking like normal people talk.


How can you get through the following without rolling your eyes?
 

Quote

To a certain extent, we expected it from the men who wear lobster-printed pants, the men from Connecticut, the Young Republicans of America with their gelled and parted hair, their summers in Nantucket, their LL Bean slippers worn on the porches of fraternities, 2pm on a Monday. But when my friend pulls me aside in a hotel bar and tells me it’s happening to her husband—a man who donates annually to NPR and voted twice for Barack Obama, who has a degree in Art History and works for a non-profit—neither one of us knows what to say.
 

We speak of it like an infection: has it spread to your household yet?
 

No doubt you’ve seen it, too: in restaurants, at corner tables, during the toasts at wedding receptions. It is evident often in Pilates classes, as women bend and stretch and grunt, pool beside the water fountain, pretend it is sweat that stings their eyes. A colleague tells me she has witnessed it at Back-to-School-Night, even, and on the beaches beneath the sunscreen. I see it sometimes in the grocery store: the way he scowls or rolls his eyes when she suggests the honeyed ham. It was witnessed most recently in the lobby of an Iowan daycare, pastel and suburban as it is, amid the many construction paper leaves, beside the giant pumpkin. It lives even—unfathomably—in the pews of American churches, as men and women clutch their Bibles, as they close their eyes in prayer and mouth the words, sweet hallelujah.

Everywhere across America, liberal unions once so strong in love—relationships founded on mutual respect and trust and commitment and loyalty—have found themselves upended, or at the very least foundationally rocked, by the political escalation as it relates, perhaps most specifically, to womanhood and gender.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Moiraine

[zoogs]

...and you can find many other comments, including from prominent journalists, who don’t have your read of the article at all; who related to it or found it powerful. You present one sneering derision as if it were the only response of note to the piece, but a cursory look online will show you that it is not. I find it fascinating how dug in you are to the idea that it’s fiction. What if it weren’t? What are the stakes here? 

 

It reads dramatically. You could say she’s being real melodramatic about the whole deal, though I think it’s only fair to point out this would be another rather gendered putdown. I think her strong feelings on this topic, the inadequacy and backlash even from liberal corners and the dismay that this causes, is quite warranted. We disagree. Can’t it just be that?

[zoogs]

I'll offer a few very public examples of things that cause me dismay. The Daily Beast, very openly and strongly left-leaning outlet, raking Kristen Gillibrand over the coals for being too nakedly opportunistic (she was one of a few to call on Al Franken to resign). The story of some big-time Democratic Party donor (a woman, in this case) threatening to withhold donations for her going after Franken and Bill Clinton, because obviously she is the one that should pay the price for things those men did.  Female politicians being skewered by the left for being maybe too power hungry and ambitious -- Gillibrand, HRC, Kamala Harris, heck, Oprah -- while at the same time pining for Joe Biden, because isn't it adorable how that good old-time boy grew up dreaming about wanting to be President and wouldn't it be nice if he got it?

 

I mean, ultimately, I think we're on the same wavelength here. And yeah, there are plenty of liberal men who are just as angry about these things, but there are also men (and women) who sincerely and strongly hold that such anger is contrived, scorn-worthy, or illegitimate. These are fraught and highly charged political times, to put it as evenly as possible.

[Moiraine]

33 minutes ago, zoogs said:

...and you can find many other comments, including from prominent journalists, who don’t have your read of the article at all; who related to it or found it powerful. You present one sneering derision as if it were the only response of note to the piece, but a cursory look online will show you that it is not. I find it fascinating how dug in you are to the idea that it’s fiction. What if it weren’t? What are the stakes here? 

 

It reads dramatically. You could say she’s being real melodramatic about the whole deal, though I think it’s only fair to point out this would be another rather gendered putdown. I think her strong feelings on this topic, the inadequacy and backlash even from liberal corners and the dismay that this causes, is quite warranted. We disagree. Can’t it just be that?

 

 

I told you I already searched. None of them showed me that. There were 8 results. When I turned off "omit results" the next 3 pages of links were all to lithub and facebook. I'm "dug in" because the essay pisses me off in its stupidity and it makes my gender look ridiculous, and the feminist movement look ridiculous, and the left look ridiculous. It would be damaging to all 3 if more people read it.

I also find it crazy that you think I'm using gendered putdowns. I think men are just as prone to being overdramatic as women. I'm allowed to use it when it's appropriate without being a sexist against my own kind.

You keep using examples that are actually legitimate things that are a problem to defend the essay, but none of that has anything to do with the essay, nor does it make the things she wrote about more real.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Moiraine

[zoogs]

I mean I just think both of these are gendered putdowns:

- Woman's claims are probably fiction she is attempting to pass off as fact

- Highly credentialed woman obviously shows no skill in her area

 

It's not like these are always invalid, but the way they're immediately reached for and leaned upon. It's striking, to me. I don't feel her writing is bad here, and I don't especially see how it's relevant except as a means to really make a villain out of this author. I'm sorry the essay pissed you off so much. I strongly disagree that it makes any of those three look ridiculous. And I also disagree that our voices and opinions should be packaged in a form that the general whole would find suitably amenable. I think it's the people who would actually take such things as indictments on the female gender or on feminism or on the left that are an embarrassment, and only to themselves.

 

I'll point you to Twitter for a sampling of the conversation, since this is where much of it happens (at least in public), with some selected quotes:

Matt Pearce (LAT) https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/968714694801412096
Jamil Smith (Rolling Stone) https://twitter.com/JamilSmith/status/969439232019197954
Amy Butcher's own twitter https://twitter.com/amyebutcher/status/968542254267805697

 

Spoiler

Conservative man: "Or, maybe, it's just really REALLY tiresome living with somebody who is "on". all. the. time."

Man really into gaming industry politics: "Hysterical. Thanks for the laugh."

Woman: "Thanks for talking about this"

Jamil Smith: "I long for the day when men realize, at last, that feminism is not a threat to us. Same goes for white people who believe that efforts to end racism pose a danger to them. Hetero folk, too, who consider marriage equality an affront. Though, I suspect much of this is performance." (side note: I really, really appreciate the way Jamil talks about topics such as this. He's a wonderful voice)

Woman: "Try being a WOC, especially a black woman. Being smart, independent & having strong liberal opinions has me labeled as “intimidating” since my 20s. It’s why I’m alone now at 45. Men feeling threatened is very real thing & on SM it comes with a large dose of viciousness"

LGBTQ-identifying man: "This entire piece is so on-point. And yet it’s broader still: I’ve seen—and have personally experienced—fraying otherwise close interracial relationships on the Left, platonic and romantic, along issues of race, and in a very similar way to the stories Amy uplifts so deftly."

Some person (no details): "Thanks for tweeting this, it's so on point. I started witnessing this from liberal men in 2016. Sudden anger at women for embracing a feminism that no longer seemed benign; that went beyond consumer slogans and girl power. And this rift is far from over."

Woman, HRC supporter: "Not my experience at all, actually. My husband's sharing my outrage and growing with me as we fight back." (Yay! Good for them)

Woman: "I find that feminism was viewed as a fandom or brief little fad/hobby in the past, tolerated till it passed. It has arrived in the 2.0 version and has a different feel of permanence. It’s taking up space, it’s rightful space, and society is experiencing cramps." (She corrected the second "it's", for you grammar snobs out there)

Woman: "I think a lot of women feel like Cassandra - we are shouting the truth and warning those around us about threats to our democracy and we are being told it is overwhelming to listen to. It's so frustrating."

Woman: "Friends, too.  If I could compartmentalize the things that are happening all around me to concern myself only with what affects me personally, I would not be so annoying.  Yet every day there is something new to worry about and it feels wrong not to bring attention to it."

Man, Proud Liberal: "I call bs."

Woman: "I broke up with my long-term partner of six years in December. My decision had been long coming, but one of the final motivating factors was his unsupportive and often condescending reaction to my opposition to Trump."

Man, seems to be a Trump supporter: "I have to ask... Are you being paid by the word here?"

 

 

 

There were quite a few from men who said things like, thanks, this is making me think about things more. That makes me happy. Anyway. You're certainly not required to have the same response I had. I'm just glad that she wrote this, happy to see others respond to it the way I did, and happy to see it getting shared in liberal circles online.

 

[zoogs]

35 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

You keep using examples that are actually legitimate things that are a problem to defend the essay, but none of that has anything to do with the essay, nor does it make the things she wrote about more real.

So, I'm curious about this. The essay is broadly about the strains in relationships caused by liberal men who have pretty negative reactions to the active and sometimes angry activism of women since the 2016 election. If we were to point to some public expressions of that activism and then highlight visibly hostile reactions to it even from within the left, and we agree that this is a legitimate problem...doesn't that actually have everything to do with the essay? Isn't the type of person who would have that reaction precisely the subject of the essay? I mean, it's not everyone, thank goodness, but it's also not nobody, and it's anywhere from no trouble at all, to a bit of a bother, to totally shattering to those who find themselves in this boat.