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Sexism - It's a Real Thing


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5 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Ugh. You are of course the last person I actually would think is sexist. I hope you do know that.

 

"I don't believe her" is not an insult, but it -- the concept of not believing something claimed to be true -- is a way of dismissing what someone says that is, factually, more often and more easily used on women than on men. This is all I mean by gendered putdowns. You, again, think that nonetheless it applies. I do not.

 

You are allowed to critique, but I am suggesting that the "not real" claim needs a lot more support.  I mean, I still feel this way. You think the story sounds far-fetched and I can understand that, but there's nothing that indicates this wasn't drawn from her own personal experiences. So I think we need to be a lot more careful before leaping to all the criticisms that follow from "author made up stories to embellish her essay"....but, fine, you do not.

 

 

Pretty much all of that is beside the point. You're projecting weakness on women by accusing people unlikely to usw gendered putdowns of using gendered putdowns. It's completely out of left field. You're putting a suit of armor on all women that tries to stop them from being criticized for a litany of different possible things you see as women are accused of more often than men.

 

It's not relevant whether they are accused more often of these things or not. You need to realize that people can think these things of writing regardless of the person's gender and thinking these things doesn't make the critiques gendered putdowns.

 

Yes, obviously gendered putdowns do occur, but the source should matter when you're throwing accusaions around. It should have been and should be pretty damn obvious that's not what was happening.

Edited by Moiraine
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1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

Most of what was described in that account is typical in someone playing hard to get. And it's a lot less of a turn on if the guy stops pursuing every 3 minutes to ask "are you sure it's okay?" Especially if a partial blow job has already been given.

 

This may or may not be personal experience talking...

 

It's maybe also the account of someone who was really not comfortable with things moving so fast, and the latter is not the proposed alternative. I think the case being made here is that she didn't want it, she wasn't just playing hard to get (these are dangerous lines to blur, aren't they?), and that a possible and much better outcome would be if the pursuit had stopped in its tracks much earlier on.

 

Like, especially when it's early on and it's someone you don't know, maybe be a lot more clear on comfort areas and boundaries, this is something we can at least consider the ideal.

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3 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

It's maybe also the account of someone who was really not comfortable with things moving so fast, and the latter is not the proposed alternative. I think the case being made here is that she didn't want it, she wasn't just playing hard to get (these are dangerous lines to blur, aren't they?), and that a possible and much better outcome would be if the pursuit had stopped in its tracks much earlier on.

 

Like, especially when it's early on and it's someone you don't know, maybe be a lot more clear on comfort areas and boundaries, this is something we can at least consider the ideal.

 

 

It's obvious to me she didn't want it because I believe her account. But that wasn't the point of my post. My point was even in reading her account I understand why Aziz didn't realize she didn't want it.

 

I would honestly be pissed off at a man if he stopped trying after I'd given him a blow job. The couch part is the only part that bothered me.

Edited by Moiraine
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1 minute ago, zoogs said:

 

It's maybe also the account of someone who was really not comfortable with things moving so fast, and the latter is not the proposed alternative. I think the case being made here is that she didn't want it, she wasn't just playing hard to get (these are dangerous lines to blur, aren't they?), and that a possible and much better outcome would be if the pursuit had stopped in its tracks much earlier on.

 

Like, especially when it's early on and it's someone you don't know, maybe be a lot more clear on comfort areas and boundaries, this is something we can at least consider the ideal.

The case being made should instead be that the woman has the power to stop any sexual encounter. Women have a voice, so use it. Don't treat women like they have no agency and it's entirely up to the man to decide whether she really is "enthusiastic" or not.

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Let's not be so quick to judge the less enthusiastic, who willingly bring partners to orgasm because it makes them happy.


--

So this is almost the opposite scenario. Enthusiastic just means enthusiastically willing -- which you are, whether or not you're tired or thinking of cake instead of being in the moment, because you've made this choice to accommodate a partner you love, for example.

 

The other scenario means having no idea if your partner for the evening has made that choice for you, or assuming *wildly* that they have (we can agree this is an extraordinary assumption to make on a first date with a stranger, right?), or just not even having the consideration cross your mind.

 

That is what, allegedly, happened here, and that is something I hope we can all agree is a thing that both happens a lot, and could stand to happen a lot less if people were more conscious of it.

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1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

It's obvious to me she didn't want it because I believe her account. But that wasn't the point of my post. My point was even in reading her account I understand why Aziz didn't realize she didn't want it.

I see. I don't know. I have a different view. 

 

I can understand why Aziz didn't realize, but the why is he wasn't all that concerned about where she was with all this. I'd like to think that going forward, it'll be something that's on his mind. And that'll be good for everybody.

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3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

The case being made should instead be that the woman has the power to stop any sexual encounter. Women have a voice, so use it. Don't treat women like they have no agency and it's entirely up to the man to decide whether she really is "enthusiastic" or not.

OK, this falls under the classic category of "why didn't she just leave" and I think a million people have gone through this better than I will be able to. This isn't about pretending women have no agency. It's about recognizing that they are in a coercive situation that is difficult to get out of in a socially acceptable way. A variety of responses, from a quick Google.

 

https://www.designmom.com/bad-date-or-coercion-aziz-ansari/

https://www.refinery29.com/2018/01/188734/sexual-assault-consent-physical-intimidation

https://story.californiasunday.com/orenstein-consent

https://twitter.com/theblowout/status/952692536254124036?lang=en

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2018/01/why-didnt-she-just-say-no/ 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/erna-mahyuni/article/women-cant-say-no-because-many-dont-know-how-to

http://www.chicagonow.com/listing-beyond-forty/2018/01/21-reasons-women-have-sex-they-dont-want-instead-of-saying-no/

https://mashable.com/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-consent-saying-no/#8NnsrnJ4Psq2

 

Also, let's be clear here. The timeline is she told him to back off; he'd forget shortly and come right back to it. And eventually, she left. It didn't need to come to that.

 

If you feel this was a low blow to Aziz personally, fine. He's not the protagonist of the story, though, not to me. You can feel simultaneously that it's wrong to slime your partners publicly like this, and that there are lessons to take from his mistakes.

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9 minutes ago, zoogs said:


--

So this is almost the opposite scenario. Enthusiastic just means enthusiastically willing -- which you are, whether or not you're tired or thinking of cake instead of being in the moment, because you've made this choice to accommodate a partner you love, for example.

 

The other scenario means having no idea if your partner for the evening has made that choice for you, or assuming *wildly* that they have (we can agree this is an extraordinary assumption to make on a first date with a stranger, right?), or just not even having the consideration cross your mind.

 

That is what, allegedly, happened here, and that is something I hope we can all agree is a thing that both happens a lot, and could stand to happen a lot less if people were more conscious of it.

 

Sometimes people have sex with people they don't love.

 

Sometimes one person is a lot more into it than the other.

 

Sometimes people are perfectly conscious of what they're doing and do it anyway.

 

Sometimes they feel bad about it.

 

Sometimes they don't.

 

This is the umpteenth post where you have nobly offered to define morality for others. I don't think that's the trait you're looking for. 

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14 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Pretty much all of that is beside the point. You're projecting weakness on women by accusing people of using gendered putdowns. You're putting a suit of armor on all women that tries to stop them from being criticized for a litany of different possible things you see as women are accused of more often than men.

 

It's not relevant whether they are accused more often of these things or not. You need to realize that people can think these things of writing regardless of the person's gender and thinking these things doesn't make the critiques gendered putdowns.

 

Yes, obviously gendered putdowns do occur, but the source should matter when you're throwing accusaions around. It should have been and should be pretty damn obvious that's not what was happening.

Should I consider whether it's a woman or a man saying the line before deciding whether it's reasonable or not? I mean, yeah, I do agree with that. But I also think arguments should be dissected on the merits of their content.

 

I am surprised that it was you who said this, and it did not make me think, gosh, Moiraine is secretly sexist. If it had been another source, then I would have probably felt differently. Nonetheless, I thought that we were running with "she made up these ridiculous stories" as incontrovertible fact way, way, way too quickly. The other thing was I felt like she was being treated as a juvenile-level writer. You tell me this was in my head, in your case, and I'm sorry for that -- but yours was also not the only perspective I was responding to. In other cases, "just a blog" especially, I felt it applied. And Guy, to his credit, has moderated his characterization of the writing substantially. I appreciate this.

 

Anyway, the idea is maybe exactly to put a suit of armor, except it's not really like that. It's like the default is that everyone has this armor; we give a lot of benefit of the doubt, except it's missing in some cases. We're familiar with what those cases are. So point it out and set a higher bar to clear for making those types of arguments.

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8 minutes ago, zoogs said:

OK, this falls under the classic category of "why didn't she just leave" and I think a million people have gone through this better than I will be able to. This isn't about pretending women have no agency. It's about recognizing that they are in a coercive situation that is difficult to get out of in a socially acceptable way. A variety of responses, from a quick Google.

 

https://www.designmom.com/bad-date-or-coercion-aziz-ansari/

https://www.refinery29.com/2018/01/188734/sexual-assault-consent-physical-intimidation

https://story.californiasunday.com/orenstein-consent

https://twitter.com/theblowout/status/952692536254124036?lang=en

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2018/01/why-didnt-she-just-say-no/ 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/erna-mahyuni/article/women-cant-say-no-because-many-dont-know-how-to

http://www.chicagonow.com/listing-beyond-forty/2018/01/21-reasons-women-have-sex-they-dont-want-instead-of-saying-no/

https://mashable.com/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-consent-saying-no/#8NnsrnJ4Psq2

 

Also, let's be clear here. The timeline is she told him to back off; he'd forget shortly and come right back to it. And eventually, she left. It didn't need to come to that.

 

If you feel this was a low blow to Aziz personally, fine. He's not the protagonist of the story, though, not to me. You can feel simultaneously that it's wrong to slime your partners publicly like this, and that there are lessons to take from his mistakes.

You're confusing sexual assault and sexual consent. I'm not saying that the women are at fault for assault or intimidation. From all reports, neither was the case for Aziz. I am saying that women are responsible for their own consent. Life is full of difficult and even coercive situations, and I expect women to bear their own responsibilities just as do men. If we want to have a discussion about how to teach and encourage women to be assertive and feel empowered, then I'm on-board. If we want to say that men should recognize that women are too timid/easily coerced/weak/<insert excuse> to be assertive and feel empowered, then I'm going to stand against that.

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3 minutes ago, zoogs said:

I am surprised that it was you who said this, and it did not make me think, gosh, Moiraine is secretly sexist. If it had been another source, then I would have probably felt differently. Nonetheless, I thought that we were running with "she made up these ridiculous stories" as incontrovertible fact way, way, way too quickly. The other thing was I felt like she was being treated as a juvenile-level writer. You tell me this was in my head, in your case, and I'm sorry for that -- but yours was also not the only perspective I was responding to. In other cases, "just a blog" especially, I felt it applied. And Guy, to his credit, has moderated his characterization of the writing substantially. I appreciate this.

 

So, as a man, I'm not allowed to have the same opinion as Moiraine.

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5 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Sometimes people have sex with people they don't love.

 

Sometimes one person is a lot more into it than the other.

 

Sometimes people are perfectly conscious of what they're doing and do it anyway.

 

Sometimes they feel bad about it.

 

Sometimes they don't.

 

This is the umpteenth post where you have nobly offered to define morality for others. I don't think that's the trait you're looking for. 

You're not going to actually dig into, let's strip the names and the question of fact out of this, <Hypothetical Man Doing The Things In That Story> as totally fine, right?

 

Because it's also clearly not that much of a hypothetical. It's an experience that is familiar to a lot of people -- women who, I mean, just read their responses to the story -- and men for whom it's dawned, "was that me? I don't want that to be me." And then there's "this is fine". Why pick that one, why?! 

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3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

So, as a man, I'm not allowed to have the same opinion as Moiraine.

 

Where on earth are we going with this? 

 

Moiraine said I should consider the source. I agree. I do respond differently based on where I think someone's likely to be coming from. The next thing I said is that I try to keep that to a limited extent, because no matter who is saying the thing, let's focus on the thing being said.

 

Quote

"If we want to say that men should recognize that women are too timid/easily coerced/weak/<insert excuse> to be assertive and feel empowered, then I'm going to stand against that."

 

Recognize imbalanced power dynamics. This is the argument against Bill Clinton, for example. 

The point is (a) be more mindful and (b) understand the times you might be unconsciously throwing your weight around, creating a situation that is hard to get out of nicely. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

My point was even in reading her account I understand why Aziz didn't realize she didn't want it.

 

Bing.

 

And everything that happened afterward - him assisting getting her home safely, her texting him the next day saying she was not OK with the previous night, his apologetic and confused response - all of that was OK. 

 

What wasn't OK was when she, remaining anonymous, outed him as a bad actor in that situation.  She also acted badly that night, but it was a one-sided hit piece caught up in the overswing of the pendulum, and suddenly you have a man who may/may not be innocent being blindsided by an accusation he may not have deserved.

 

She may be right.

 

He may be right.

 

But we'll never know now because of what she chose to do vis a vis that story. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Should I consider whether it's a woman or a man saying the line before deciding whether it's reasonable or not? I mean, yeah, I do agree with that. But I also think arguments should be dissected on the merits of their content.

 

I am surprised that it was you who said this, and it did not make me think, gosh, Moiraine is secretly sexist. If it had been another source, then I would have probably felt differently.

 

 

It probably should've made you think I wasn't doing the thing you were accusing me of doing. And then... maybe the other people aren't either.

 

And I fail to see how it matters if people think she's a juvenile writer if they've never heard of her before and thought her writing was juvenile.

 

It's not like, after finding out her credentials, people were dissing her in that way just to be sexist aholes.

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